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PROJECT GRILL FLAME (Army/AMSAA Phase I)
U.S. Army / CIA Reading Room · 1978–1979
PROJECT GRILL FLAME (Army/AMSAA Phase I) · 246 pages · PDF 11.2 MB
US federal government record (US Army, CIA reading room). Public domain; hosted here so it can be read and searched. Original source ↗
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DP96-00788R001100080005-8 A oved For Release 200 QMSQQ INTERIM NOTE # 15 (U) (SECRET-NOFORN) PROJECT GRILL FLAME AMSAA PHASE 1 EFFORTS July 1979 CLASSIFIED BY: MSC, HQDA (DAMI-ISH) , R VIEW ON 7 July 1999 SPECIAL ACTIVITIES OFFICE US. ARMY MATERIEL SYSTEMS ANALYSIS ACTIVITY ABERDEEN PROVING GROUND, MARYLAND SECRET 11551979 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 Information and data contained in this document are based on the input avai lable at the time of preparation. The results may be subj ect to change and should not be construed as representing the DARCOM position unless so specified. The Special Activities Office (SAO) of the US Army Materiel Systems Analysis Activity (AMSAA) produces this Interim Note as an infomal account of an interim nature, transmitted through channels to a limited number of addressees, on a working level need-to-know basis for internal It is a fragmentary disclosure of day-to-day progress in a technical use . It is not intended that field of interest to the Special Activities Office. this report affect in any way the publication or established procedures governing AMSAA reports. Thus, due to the nature of the document, no final conclusions or recommendations should be construed or based upon the infor- mation contained therein . Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 SPECIAL ACTIVITIES OFFICE INTERIM NOTE NO. 15 (SECRET-NOFORN) PROJECT GRILL FLAME AMSAA PHASE 1 EFFORTS July 1979 (U) CLASSIFIED BY: MSG, HQDA (DAMI-ISH) , dated 7 Jui¯78 7 July 1999 REVIEW ON: ABERDEEN PROVING GROUND, NOT RELEASABLE TO FOREIGN NATIONALS
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 UNCLASSIFIED 2 UNCLASSIFIED
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 SPECIAL UNCLASSIFIED ACTIVITIES OFFICE INTERIM NOTE NO. 15 Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD July 1979 (SECRET-NOFORN) PROJECT GRILL FLAME AMSAA PHASE 1 EFFORTS ABSTRACT (U) This report presents the results of AMSAA's Phase I participation in Project GRILL FLAME . 3 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 UNCLASSIFIED ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS The identification of the specific roles played by specific individuals in the AMSAA GRILL FLAME program must be Individual roles are referred to in this publica— protected. t ion and all other project records by alpha—numeric designa— the success of the GRILL FLAME program is However , tors. dependent on all of the Individuals involved as participants, Their names advisors, administrative support personnel, etc. are hereby listed in recognition of their support. Dr. COL GEN Mr. Mr. Dr. Mr. Mr. Mr . Mr. Mr. Ms. Ms. Ms. Ms. Mr . Mr. Mr . Ms. Ms. Ms. Mr . Ms. Ms. Ms. Ms. Ms. Joseph Sper razza Albert DeProspero Lewis Walt Daniel O'Neill John Kramat Evan Harris Walker Paul Kunselman Ray Dietz Scott Phillips Michael I ten Dan Murdock Clark Thomas Lynne Taylor Donna McComas Edith Reardon Sally Woomert Mark Reches George Hanna Michael Finkel Sandy Johnson Jo Carroll Carole Brooks Brit Harrison Glenna Tingle Juanita Keesee Arlene Whitaker Michael Miller Louise Aaron 4 UNCLASSIFIED
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(S-NF) ABSTRACT . ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS . BACKGROUND . OBJECTIVES . DEFINITIONS. . 4. 6. 8. Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 1. 2. 3. 3. 3. 3.3 3. 3. 3.6 3. Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 CONTENTS (U) Page I 2 4 5 7 8 Remote View ing (RV) Remote Viewer Interviewer Remote Viewing Session. Target Pool Selector (TPS) . Beacon Individual Project Officer Project Manager SELECTION OF PARTICIPANTS. . ORGANIZATION OF RV TEAMS . PROCEDURES . 6.1 Target Selection. . 6.2 Remote Viewer Session Preliminaries . 6.3 Activity of the Beacon Individual . 6.4 Remote Viewing Session. . 6 5 Post—Session Analysis EVALUATION . 7.1 Rank Ordering Method. . 7.2 Principle Concepts Method SPECIAL SESSIONS , 8.1 8.2 8.3 8.4 8.5 Canada. . Sweden. . Egypt . . . Special Participants. . Target—of—the—day Sessions. . . 5
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 (S-NF) CONTENTS (Continued) (U) Page PROBLEMS ENCOUNTERED 9 . 1 Problems Impacting on 9.2 Location. . 9 . 3 Equipment . 9.4 Special Case. . LESSONS LEARNED. • IØ.I Rise Time 1Ø.2 Quiet Time. Participant Efficiency. 1Ø.3 Remote Viewer/ Interviewer Interaction 1Ø.4 Remote Viewer/ Interviewer Interaction Specific— ally during the RV Session. . 1Ø.5 Tape Recording. . 1Ø.6 Role of the Beacon Individual . 1Ø,7 Evaluation Process. . . 11. SUMMARY. • APPENDIX A APPENDIX B APPENDIX C - GRILL PLAME PROJECT DESIGNATION TWX • - SRI PROTOCOL. . - EDITED TRANSCRIPTS AND TARGETS PACKAGE. 6
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(S—NF) AMSAA first became cognizant of efforts ongoing in applied parapsychology, or psychoenergetic pro— through unclassified information available in the cesses, This particular literature concentrated on open literature. the work in remote viewing being done by Dr. Harold Put-hoff and Mr. Russell Targ of SRI International with psychics Ingo Swann, Pat Price and Hella Hammid. (S—NF) On 21 March 1978, Dr. Puthoff gave presen— tat ions to the AMSAA staff on remote viewing as a part of Puthoffts At Dr. AMSAA's general guest lecture program. request, one of the presentations was given at the SECRET controlled access SI level to a selected few AMSAA manage— ment personnel while the other presentation was given at the SECRET level to about 4Ø interested members of the AMSAA These presentations provided the impetus to further staff. explore SRI Is efforts in coordination with the Foreign Tech— Upon no logy Division, Wright—Patterson Air Porce Base , realizing the tactical military potential of such phenomena, AMSAA so informed the CG, DARCOM and the Under Secretary of the Army and received tacit approval in April 1978 to fis— call y assist the project in order to sustain it and to obtain some data on targeting of tactical ground targets. In May 1978, AMSAA transferred $1ØØK to FTD for SRI to con- t inue their investigations on the military applications of remote viewing. In addition to the AMSAA support of SRI , (S-NF) the establishment of an in—house program on remote viewing General discus— was approved by CG DARCOM in April 1978. s ions were held among interested analysts during April to In July 1978, a Project Manager was appointed by July 1978. the AMSAA Project Officer to organize and direct the in— In August 1978, AMSAA began conducting remote house effort. viewing sessions. In July 1978 the unclassified code name (S-NF) GRILL FLAME was issued to replace any open reference to US US Army interest or Army involvement in parapsychology . work in parapsychology is classified SECRET NOFORN with a str ict need—to—know caveat operative for the GRILL FLAME In September 1978, DIA guidance fur— program (Appendix A) . ther defined the classification of all GRILL FLAME papers, ORCON (Dissemination and to be SECRET , reports, Extraction of Information Controlled by Originator) . 7 Approved For Release 2000/08 7 • P96-00788R001100080005-8 1. Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 (SECRET-NOFORN) PROJECT GRILL FLAME AMSAA PHASE 1 EFFORTS (SECRET-NOFORN) BACKGROUND (U) (U)
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 UNCLASSIFIED 8 UNCLASSIFIED
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First hand exper ience with remote viewing by AMSAA personnel. 9 Approved For Release 2000/ 8 7 • P96-00788R001100080005-8 2. Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 (SECRET-NOFORN) (S--NF) The taken to achieve the A first rejection of the SRI OBJECTIVES (U) AMSAA GRILL FLAME program was under— following two objectives: confirmation and/or order challenge , remote viewing protocol (Appendix B) .
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 UNCLASSIFIED 10 UNCLASSIFIED
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Approved For Release 20001 P96-00788R001100080005-8 (SECRET-NOFORN) DEFINITIONS (U) 3. (S-NF) Remote viewing (RV) 3.1 (S—NF) An intellectual process by which a person perceives characteristics of a location remote from that person; it does not involve any electronic sensing devices at or focused at the target nor does it involve classical photo interpretation of photographs obtained from overhead Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 or oblique means. (S—NF) Remote Viewer 3.2 (S—NF) The person who locates, describes the target. Interviewer (U). (S-NF) 3.3 identifies the and/or remote (S—NP) The person who interacts with viewer before, during and after the RV session. (S—NF) Remote Viewing Session (U) . 3.4 (S—NF) A single attempt by the remote locate, identify and/or describe a target. (S-NF) Target Pool Selector (TPS) 3.5 viewer to the targets selectes (S—NF) The person who This person does not target pool . compr ising the The participate in any other phase of the RV process. individual targets are maintained in a secure container accessible only to the TPS. 3.6 session. 3.7 aspects 3.8 Officer (U). (S—NF) Beacon Individual (S—NF) The person at the target site during an RV (S—NF) Project Officer (S—NF) The overall, responsible individual for all of the project. (S—NF) Project Manager (U). (S—NF) The individual designated by the Project to organize and direct the in—house RV program. 11
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 (S—NF) Some of the terminology defined above has been changed from that of the original SRI protocol being replicated. This change in identifiers resulted from d is— cuss ions among the participants to more accurately describe the roles of the individuals and their interactions as well as redefine the nature of the process as a task to be accomplished dur ing an RV session rather than as an experiment or demonstrate ion. noted as follows: SRI Subject Inbound Exper imenter Outbound Experimenter Exper iment/Demonstration The terminology changes are AMSAA Remote Viewer Interviewer Beacon Individual Session 12
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Approved For Release 2000/ 8 7 • P96-00788R001100080005-8 (SECRET-NOFORN) SELECTION OF PARTICIPANTS (U) 4. (S-NF) Upon establishment of the AMSAA GRILL FLAME program, individuals who had previously shown an interest in the potential application of RV were invitee to participate Indi interviewer or beacon individual, as a remote viewer, viduals desiring to part$ipate in these tasks were accepted. Other individuals selected after the initial participants were identified were given an orientation on the phenomena by the Project Officer and/or Project Manager and asked to After a familiarization read published literature on RV. with the RV process and procedures, these individuals were asked if they would like to participate in one of the taskse Only those individuals who indicated a positive desire to participate were accepted. 13 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 pprove UNCLASSIFIED 14 UNCLASSIFIED e ease
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Approved For Release 20001 5. 96-00788R001100080005-8 (SECRET-NOFORN) ORGANIZATION OF RV TEAMS (S-NF) (S—NF) Two teams, designated as Tl and T 2 r were Each team con— established to replicate the SRI protocol. interviewer and one or more sisted of a remote viewer, Ten RV sessions were cönducted by each beacon individuals. team, for a total of 2Ø sessions comprising this Phase I GRILL FLAME effort. It was originally envisioned that the corn— (S-NF) position of the teams would remain the same throughout all However, that was not the case (see Sec— of the sessions. The only members of the t ion 9 r Problems Encountered) . teams that participated in all of the sessions were the remote viewers; thus, each of the two remote viewers, desig— nated as Sl and S 2, participated in ten RV sessions. Four interviewers, designated as IBl through IB4, participated in the sessions as did twelve beacon individuals, designated as OBI through OBI 2, (S—NF) As the sessions progressed, the actual num— the two ber of individuals involved was reduced to four : the interviewers were remote viewers remained the same , reduced to two in number and a remote viewer and/or inter— viewer would serve as a beacon Individual for the other These four individuals remote viewer/ interviewer team . became the "core group" of the AMSAA GRILL FLAME program, and, with one individual change, remain so today. 15 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 pprove UNCLASSIFIED 16 UNCLASSIFIED e ease
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Approved For Release 20001 P96-00788R001100080005-8 (SECRET-NOFORN) PROCEDURES (U) (S—NF) Target Selection (U) . 6.1 (S—NF) A target pool of IØØ target sites was The TPS was provided a-copy of the SRI selected by the TPS. The 1 ØØ tar— protocol to guide him in the target selection. gets selected were withi•n a 3Ø—minute drive of AMSAA; the restr icted areas of APG were specifically excluded from consideration. (S—NF) The TPS went to each of the target sites he selected, took a Polaroid picture of the site and wrote the The card name and location of the site on an index card. The resulting IØØ and picture were placed in an envelope. envelopes were sealed, randomized and numbered by the TPS. The target pool was maintained by the TPS in a locked file cabinet to which he had the only key. (S—NF) The SRI protocol indicates that targets but that the target pool chosen should be distinctive should include more than one example of each distinctive This precludes the remote viewer from eliminating a type . perception of a target because one of that type was used Sl and S 2 were informed that the target pool con— before. sisted of similar as well as different types of targets and that each individual target would be used only once. (S—NF) Remote Viewer Session preliminaries 6.2 (S—NF) Before the first RV session was scheduled, the remote viewers were oriented to the procedure to be This followed by the interviewers and beacon individuals. orientation included discussions among the participants as This well as reading the published literature available. orientation was very important, as the remote viewer needed to understand that he should state raw perceptions; the SRI protocol cited experience which indicated specific interpre— tat ions are quite often inaccurate while the initial raw In perceptions of the remote viewer tend to be correct. addition, both Sl and S 2 were always encouraged to express their feelings and ideas for enhancing all aspects of the RV process. (S—NF) This or ientation was also important to the interviewers as they needed to be aware of the differences between raw perceptions and embellished descr iptions in order to be able to encourage the remote viewers to state what they perceived. 17 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 6.3 (S-NF) (S-NF) remote viewer , serving as the informal chat. Activity of the Beacon Individual At the beginning of the RV session, the interviewer and individual or individuals beacon met for 5—1Ø minutes for a relaxed, The time of this meeting, as well as the timing for all aspects of the session, was agreed to by all participants prior to the final scheduling of the session. (S-NF) The beacon individual (s) departed the meeting and obtained the target from the TPS. The TPS did not select the target until the beacon individual (s) arrived at his office. The target was then selected by using the random number generator program of the HP--65 calculator and pull ing that numbered envelope . This procedure eliminated the possibility of the beacon individual (s) divulging any hint of the target to the remote viewer and interviewer. (S—NF) After driving through the gate of the AMSAA/BRL compound the beacon individual (s) opened the target envelope and proceeded to that location, to arrive there at the specified time, usually 3Ø minutes hence, which was the amount of time it would take to drive to the furthest target in the pool. The beacon individual (s) had been instructed to stay in motion until 2—3 minutes prior to the start time of the viewing period, park his car and then walk up to the target location at the exact starting time so his view of the location was fresh. The beacon individ— ual (s) was to pay attention to the target environment and not let his mind wander, particularly to other locations. At the end of the fifteen minute viewing period, the beacon individual (s) returned to the location of the remote viewer and interviewers. 6.4 (S—NF) Remote Viewing Session (U) . (S—NF) After the beacon individual (s) departed to obtain the target and proceed to the target site, the remote viewer and interviewer had 3Ø minutes to relax and discuss the procedures of the session. At this time, the inter— viewer encouraged the remote viewer by reemphasizing his ability to do RV, reminding him to simply state his percep— t ions and, most importantly, creating an atmosphere of confidence and trust. (S—NF) When we first started conducting RV ses-• s ions, the interviewer and remote viewer usually chatted right up to the start time of the viewing period. On sev— era 1 occasions, other people were present in the room. Through continued discussions between the GRILL PLAME pprove 18 or Release
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participants and the SRI personnel, Approved For Release 20001 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 P96-00788R001100080005-8 both of these practices were halted midway through Phase I (see Section IØ, Lessons The remote viewer and interviewer were thus the Learned) . only people in the room following the departure of the Additionally, about 15 minutes prior beacon individual (s) . the remote viewer -and interviewer to the viewing period, were generally silent, enabling each one of them to relax in reading a magazine, whatever manner best suited them, e.g. , relaxing with their eyes closed, etc. (S—NF) Dur ing the 15—minute viewing per iod , the If remote viewer and interviewer functioned as a team. either Sl or S 2 did not have any immediate sensory images, the rather, the interviewer did not apply any pressure; interviewer was responsible for reassuring Sl or S 2 that there was no time pressure using statements like, "we have neither was any attempt made by all the time in the world;" the interviewer to make the remote viewer feel that he had When Sl or S2 had a perception of the to say something . in conversation with the interviewer , remote target site, the remote viewer, would try to bring out descriptive state— ments and sketches of those perceptions, being careful not to lead the remote viewer by adding or detracting from the reenforcing certain perceptions at the perceptions or The interviewer could suggest that the expense of others. remote viewer intellectually "move around" at the site and terrain describe the site more fully, to include structures, The remote colors, people, activities, etc. features, viewer was encouraged to do only those things he felt he could tell the interviewer he comfortable doing , did not want to move around a structure but preferred to descr ibe his perceptions of the beacon individual (s) ' If it appeared to the interviewer that the remote actions . viewer ts perceptions were in some way contradictory or inconsistent, the interviewer would attempt clarification by asking questions or suggesting an alternate approach to verify the original perceptions. (S—NF) All of the RV sessions were tape recorded. Additionally, the interviewer provided the remote viewer with paper and pencil to sketch his perceptions; the SRI experience indicates that drawings tend to be more accurate The remote viewers in many instances than verbalizations. were encouraged to draw either in conjunction with their verbal descriptions and/or at the end of the 15—minute viewing period, whichever they preferred. 19
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 6.5 (S—NF) Post-Session Analysis (S—NF) At the end of the 15—minute viewing period and drawing time, the remote viewer and interviewer relaxed until the beacon individual (s) returned. At that time, the interviewer and beacon individual (s) all went remote viewer, back out to the target site. This part of the procedure served several purposes: (S—NF) The remote viewer was provided the a. opportunity of seeing first—hand how well he did. b. (S—NF) The remote viewer began to evaluate the types of perceptions he felt most confident about as well as the types of imagery he was less comfortable about reveal— ing. The interviewer also began to recognize the form of those perceptions and could thus reorient his conversation with the remote viewer during subsequent sessions to better account for those factors. (S—NF) The beacon individual (s) could describe c. his exact actions at the site; this was particularly sig— nificant in the sessions in which the remote viewer spec i— fically perceived the actions of the beacon individual (s) . 20
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Approved For Release 2000 DP96-00788R001100080005-8 (SECRET-NOFORN) EVALUATION (U) (S—NF) This section of the report describes the two evaluation methods used to assess a "statistical sig— of a set of remote viewing and/or "success" nif icance " both of the methods descr i bed On the surface, efforts. below seem to be relatively straightforward and easily time they are complex, in •practice, accomplished, but, The consuming, and a very critical part of the RV process. evaluation rnethods are dependent on the resulting impersonal product of the remote viewing sessions, which turn out to be These impres— a relatively complex set of raw impressions. s ions can be described as follows: (S—NF) Each session transcript averages seven (.1) plus pages in length of basically single—spaced type , associated drawings. Each transcr ipt is comprised of an (2) (S-NF) enormous amount of information that the evaluator has to sort out, which is a product of the remote viewer's mind; usually, it is not nicely organized in clear sentences or the verbalizations represent the Rather , even phrases. remote viewer's best first time attempts to describe the fleeting perceptions of his mind, which is a very difficult process and one that is only fully understood by experienc— The resulting information is usually not a ing it oneself. picture perfect description of the target area. The remote viewer Is perceptions do not necessar ily fall into neat pat— terns nor are they normally totally accurate as some of the remote viewer's stated perceptions correspond perfectly to Add i— the target, some less closely and some not at all. tionally, the remote viewer's perceptions may be associative in nature (e.g., heating or cooling function for a refriger— hexagon for a synagogue) ator), or symbolic in nature (e.g. r as opposed to literal encompassing perceptions of the target Lastly, as the transcripts a red brick structure) . are "edited" only to remove identities and target sequence clues for the evaluator, some of the information in the t ran— scr i pts is philosophical in nature, or represents informal dialogue between the remote viewer and interviewer and does not relate to the target at all. (S—NF) The drawings made by the remote viewer (3) during the RV session are attached to the transcript. They provide the evaluator with an additional source of informa— The drawings are usually a good t ion to be sorted out. pictor i al summary of the remote viewer ts perceptions that correspond to the target, as well as those that do not. Additionally, the drawings oftentimes include information 21 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 not related by the remote viewer dur ing the verbalization aspect of the session. However, the information content of drawings has to be evaluated in light of several factors consistently found during past experience: (S-NF) The information is Often, always, presented in a left—right reversal pattern. but not (S—NF) The remote viewer' s size and distance perceptions are not necessarily accurate, although limited experience has shown that the proportional error tends to be consistent for each remote viewer. o (S—NF) While the drawing rnay be an accurate representation of the target, the functional labels assigned by the remote viewer may be inaccurate. e (S—NF) Some remote viewers are better artists than others and their drawings thus vary accordingly. (4) (S-NF ) In our rank ordering evaluation, the evaluator had to go to each of the targets. While at each target, he had to read six or seven transcripts and rank order them based on their degree of correspondence to the He had to do this at each target; this Phase I target. effort had a total of 2Ø targets. Thus, the amount of time that has to be devoted to the evaluation process is quite significant. 7.1 (S—NF) Rank Order inq Method (U) . (S—NF) An individual who was in no way associated with the remote viewing sessions read the 2Ø transcr i pts and deleted from them any references to dates or previous tar— This was done to prevent an evaluator from order ing gets. the transcr ipts chronologically determining that a given transcript couldn't be a specific site because the remote viewer mentioned that what he was perceiving reminded him of the specific target he had at his previous session. (S—NF) Three evaluators were chosen to evaluate all 2Ø edited transcripts with their associated drawings against the 2Ø targets. Due to the cumbersome natue of this task and advice provided by SRI, the transcripts and assoc i— ated targets were divided into three packages: the first seven sessions of S 1, the first seven sessions of S 2, and the last three sessions of Sl and S2. The transcr i pts and target listings were independently randomized for each package. Each evaluator was thus given three transcript/ target packages, a copy of the SRI protocol, a matrix to 22
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Approved For Release 2000 DP96-00788R001100080005-8 fill in their results and an instruction sheet describing the evaluation procedure detailed in the next paragraph. copy of the total packet given to the evaluators is included The details of the evaluation procedure for as Appendix C. each package were as follows: (S—NF) The evaluator was to go to the first target He then read through site of his choice and •look around. all the transcr i pts and examined associated drawings with the goal of determining the best to worst description of rank ordered the transcripts 1, that particular target, 6 for the last 7 (7 for the first two packages, package), best to worst match for that target, and entered This same procedure was carried the results on the matrix. The rank ordering for each target out at each target site. was done independently of the previous rank orderings , so that, for example, a given transcript may have been chosen first place match for more than one target if that provided After the first package the best ordering of descriptions. was completed, the evaluator went on to the second package and followed the rank ordering procedure for that package. Each of the The third package was evaluated accordingly. three evaluators, working independently, went through the All of the entire procedure for each of the three packages. or iginal evaluation matrices are provided in Tables 7—1 through 7—3; Table 7—1 contains the matrices generated by the evaluators for Package Table 7—2 for Package #2, and Table 7—4 is a summary of the Table 7—3 for Package #3. results listed in the order in which the sessions actually occurred. (S—NF) While the results of this evaluation were not statistically significant, defined as the probability of the obtained surn of tanks being less than or equal to .Ø5, the learning that occurred during that period was signifi— cant, as can be somewhat implied by the results if the level for statistical significance is lowered to Ø.I and provided a very positive impetus for the participants to continue their efforts. 23 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 TABLE 7-1 (S-NF) EVALUATION MATRICES, PACKAGE #1 (U) Transcript 5 pprove 7 1 7 Target Site Evaluator #1 (9 6 Evaluator #2 O 6 Evaluator #3 5 3 24 3 4 3 2 4 1 4
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Approved For Release 20001 TABLE 7-2 (S-NF) EVALUATION P96-00788R001100080005-8 MATRICES, PACKAGE #2 Transcript 6 Target Site Evaluator Evaluator 3 Evaluator 25 2 3 1 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 TABLE 7-3 Transcript pprove (S-NF) EVALUATION MATRICES, PACKAGE #3 Target Site (U) (5 2 1 6 Evaluator #1 4 Evaluator #2 Evaluator #3 2 3 3 6 (3 5 26 e ease
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Approved For Release 20001 P96-00788R001100080005-8 TABLE 7-4 1 2 3 (S-NF) Package 5th 2nd 7th 1st 2nd 1st 1st 19 7th 6th 4th 5th 4th 6th 1st 33 p=.85 7th 7th 7th 2nd 3rd 3rd 3rd 32 EVALUATION RESULTS Evaluator Evaluator Evaluator 1 — Sum — Sum Package 2 7th 5th 4th 5th 7th 6th 6th p-.99 7th 2nd 6th 6th 3rd 2nd ää p=.46 7th 4th 2nd 1st 6th 5th 2nd 27 p-.46 (U) Pakage 3 3rd 4th 2nd 4th 3rd 5th 21 p=.55 2nd 1st 1st 5th 1st 4th 14 p=.Ø61 1st 3rd 3rd 2nd 2nd 4th 15 p=.1Ø 7 Targets/ Transcripts ficance. 6 Targets/ Transcripts ficance. of Ranks of Ranks = 18 or less for sign i— = 13 or less for signi— Significance is defined as sum of ranks <.Ø5. the probability of the obtained 27 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 7.2 (S—NF) Pr inciple Concepts Methods (U) . (S-NF) This evaluation method has only been applied on a limited basis to evaluate our transcript/ target correspondence to date, but the results are encouraging. This method provides for a less cumbersomé on—site evalu— at ion procedure and also serves as a basis for analyzing the accuracy and applicabili*ty of the data generated during the RV session. Several improvements in both the effectiveness and efficiency of the evaluation process have resulted from the use of this method: (S—NF) The evaluator reads the transcr ipts a. prior to being provided with the identity of the target sites and determines the pr inciple concepts (PC) of each transcript. The PC for each transcript are then listed on an evaluation matrix. Thus, during the actual evaluation at the target sites, the evaluator only has to deal with a page summary of the transcripts rather than continuously reading several transcr ipts, each averag ing about seven pages in length. b. (S—NF) The rank order ing method forces the evaluator to not only compare each transcript to the target but also to compare the transcripts to each other. The PC method allows the evaluator to rate the corres— pondence of each PC of the transcript to the target site, one PC at a time, without having to go through the process of comparing the transcripts against each other. (S—NF) The evaluator can make his final deter— c. mination of transcript/ target match after he has visited one of the target sites by statistically evaluating the PC cor— respondence ratings and using those results in concert with the drawings and any other information he may have to come to a final decision, to include going back to the target site. This relieves the pressure on the evaluator, present in the rank ordering method, to make a determination of final match at the same time. d. (S—NP) Even after their use during the evalu— at ion process, the PC matrices are a valuable source of information to all of the participants in the remote viewing The correspondence ratings allow the remote viewer process. to see how his feelings about the PC compare with their evaluation and to identify which types of his impressions tend to be more accurate than others. This type of analysis is also helpful to the interviewer in being able to suggest avenues of approach to the remote viewing dur ing the RV sessions. pprove Additionally, this analysis of PC correspondence 28 e ease
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Approved For Release 2000 DP96-00788R001100080005-8 can serve as a guideline in determining target character is— this tics that are more physically interesting than others; type of information is valuable in developing target pools and particularly in evaluating the reliability and accuracy of remote viewer impressions in actual application situa— t ions. (S—NF) The on 1 y evaluation done to date using this method was conducted by a member of the SRI staff in March The randomized target/ transcript package consisted of 1979. five of the six sessions included in the previously men— tioned third package; the 6th session was not included as it did not meet all of the criteria of the protocol (see Sec— The results of this evalua— t ion 9, Problems Encountered) . t ion, based on the procedures descr i bed in the following Figure 7.1 presents a paragraph, are provided in Table 7—5. graphical interpretation of the results of the evaluation on The steps of this evaluation procedure were as Table 7—5. follows: (S—NF) The evaluator first reads a transcript a. at his work site and determines the principle concepts (PC) He then listed the PC for stated throughout the transcr ipt. this transcript on an evaluation matrix (Figure 7.2) . then followed the same procedure for the other transcripts. At this step has has an evaluation matrix for each tran— script. (S—NF) The evaluator made additional copies of b. the five matrices so that he had several sets of evaluation Thus, matrices one of which is to be used at each target. his correspondence analysis at each target was done inde— pendent ly of his analyses at any of the other targets. (S—NF) The evaluator then went to the first c. target site of his choosing and, using one set of evaluation matrices, evaluated the correspondence to the site of each PC of the five separate transcripts on a scale of ø—1Ø. then put this set of evaluation matrices aside and went on He followed this correspondence to the second target site. evaluation procedure at each of the remaining target sites. Upon finishing the evaluation, he had five completed sets of evaluation matrices. the then calculated evaluator (S-NF) The d. including the mean and variance, of appropriate statistics, Table 7-5 all the PCs of each transcript for each target. is a summary of these calculated mean values. 29 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 200 3.81 4.29 4.59 2.71 s. 47 2.38 2.69 2.38 107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 TABLE 7-5 TARGET * TRANSCRIPT c (S-NF) EVALUATION RESULTS Florist Shop j 6.80 3.33 2.86 Diner 4.20 7.75 3.29 High School 3.80 4.00 5.52 Community Services Bldg 4.30 5.92 Marina 0.60 1.83 2.43 1.76 6.62 pprove Correct Match Shift in choice due to comparison of drawing to target Targets have been reordered to show results along the diagonal or
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Approved For Releas 32 UNCLASSIFIED Approved or elease 2
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Approved For Release 20001 P96-00788R001100080005-8 (S—NF) The results of the target/ transcr ipt correspondence based on the calculated mean values were then reviewed utilizing the drawings attached to the transcripts in order to establish a final rank ordering of each t ran— The resulting five out of five script with each target. correct matches obtained in this evaluation are indicated on Table 7—5 by blocks. is planned to have three in—house (S-NF) It evaluators utilize this evaluation procedure on the same The results should prove both five targets/ transcr i pts. interesting and quite useful. 33 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 UNCLASSIFIED 34 UNCLASSIFIED pprove e ease 107 : c
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Approved For Release 2000/—P96-00788R001100080005-8 SPECIAL SESSIONS (U) (SECRET-NOFORN) 8. (S—NF) This section briefly surnmarizes the special sessions that were held in addition to the 2Ø replication The transcr i pts from the sessions discussed thus far. majority of these sessions have not been edited or formally They evaluated and are thus not included in this reporte are available to those individuals with a need to know as determined by the Project Officer or Project Manager. (S-NF) Canada (U) . 8.1 (S—NF) Four sessions were conducted at SRI with an SRI consultant as the remote viewer, an SRI staff member as the interviewer and an AMSAA GRILL FLAME participant serving The beacon individual was on a as the beacon individual. business/ vacation trip in Canada over a two week per iod in August 1978. At the time these sessions were conducted, the the remote viewer and beacon individual had never met; remote viewer was told the beacon individual's name and place of employment, provided with a copy of his Pentagon After the first pass, and informed that he was in Canada. session had been held, the remote viewer requested and was provided with the beacon individual(s date and place of No other information was given to the remote viewer birth. during the course of the sessions. the for times the predetermined (S-NF) At the beacon individual took notes, photographs sessions , The sessions were and/or made sketches of his location. tape recorded and transcribed as usual; copies of the edited transcr ipts and any notes or drawings made by the remote viewer during the sessions were sent to AMSAA for evalua— t ion. in evaluated first package (S-NF) The was Four AMSAA individuals were provided with September 1978. copies of the four transcripts and one each of the targets, with their task being to rank order the four transcripts 1 The results to 4, best to worst match, to their one target. How— of this evaluation were not statistically significant. it should be noted that the last three sessions held after the viewer was provided the beacon individual's date The first and place of birth were ranked 1st, 1st, and 2nd, session received a 4th place ranking; a possible explanation for this occurrence is that the beacon individual had his The family with him and his son has the same name as his. data obtained dur ing the session correlated with a possible location of his son at that time (as the son was unaware of 35 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 the experiment there is no precise record of where the son was at the t irne of the first session) . (S-NP) In February 1979, these sessions were reevaluated by four different AMSAA individuals with the addition of two photographs provided by the beacon indi— vidual of one of the target locations. The results were identical to the initial •evaluation. 8.2 (S-NF) Sweden (U) . (S—NF) Three sessions were held in October 1978 with an AMSAA GRILL FLAME participant on a business trip to Sweden serving as the beacon individual. Sl participated in two sessions, S2 in one session and I B4 was the interviewer in all three sessions. These transcr i pts have not been edited or formally evaluated; informal evaluation based on verbal and written descriptions provided by the beacon indi— vidual indicated considerable correlation with the data provided by the remote viewers. 8.3 (S-NF) Egypt (U) . (S-NF) In November 1978, two sessions were held with an AMSAA GRILL FLAME participant on a business trip to Egypt serving as the beacon individual. Sl and IB4 were the remote viewer and interviewer in both sessions. These tran— scripts have not been edited or formally evaluated; informal evaluation based on verbal and pictorial descriptions pro— vided by the beacon individual ind icated cons iderable correlation with the data provided by the remote viewer. 8.4 (S—NF) Special Participants (U) . (S—NF) Two special sessions were conducted, one in October 1978 and one in January 1979, with two individuals outside of the core group who had requested to particpate in a session as remote viewers. These two sessions were con— ducted in accordance with the procedures detailed in Section 6 of this report. (S—NF) S 3' s session was held in October 1978 with I B4 as the interviewer and OB9 as the beacon individual. This was the first time S3 had participated in a controlled While the results of this session have never RV program. been formally evaluated, the participants, particularly S 3, were extremely pleased with the high degree of correlation of the session imagery with the target site. S31s personal insights into the process as it worked for him, which he termed "relaxed concentration, were extremely valuable to 36 pprove
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Approved For Release 2000/08 96-00788R001100080005-8 the core group and we have been most fortunate in having S 3 continue his association with the project. (S—NF) S4's session was held in January 1979 with I B4 as the interviewer and OBIØ as the beacon individual. S4 had previously been involved in an RV exéerience, but not under the controlled conditions of the GRILL FLAME program. The results of this seésion have not been formally evalu— ated; I B4 and OBII were encouraged by the results, but S4's reactions were mixed and marked by a high degree of disap— pointment with his poor ability to accurately verbalize his S4 was also frustrated by perceptions in the transcript. his not summarizing his perceptions at the end of the ses— S4 has also continued his association s ion for the record. with the program and has indicated his desire to participate in future sessions. (S—NF) Two other sessions were conducted dur ing this time period in which an individual requested to serve Both of these session departed from as a beacon individual. the established procedure in several ways: (S—NF) The established target pool was not (1) used; rather the beacon individual selected his own target. (S—NF) Sl participated in both sessions , (2) however, at the time of the first session, the individuals normally filling the role of the interviewer were not available, so an individual never before associated with the IB4 was the interviewer program was placed into that role. at the second session. (S—NF) The first session was conducted on the (3) the second session was rescheduled spur of the moment , several times before it finally occurred. (S—NF) Both of these sessions were conducted under circumstances that were previously found to not necessarily be conductive to achieving good remote viewing results. While the results of the sessions had their good points as well as their bad points, these sessions were most valuable for the lessons learned in how not to conduct an RV session. (S—NF) Target—of—the—day Sessions (U) . 8.5 (S—NF) Three target—of—the—day sessions were held in November—December 1978, two with Sl and one with S2. 1B4 These sessions was the interviewer in all of the sessions. were held after the completion of the official 2Ø sessions and were conceived of by the core group for the purpose of 37 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 gaining further exper ience and insight into the RV process before progressing into Phase II of the program. (S—NF) The target—of—the-day sessions basically followed the procedures detailed in Section 6, with the following exceptions: (1) (S—NF) No beacon individual participated in the sessions. In two of the sessions, the TPS randomly selected the target envelope and merely placed it on his rather than giving it to a beacon individual (s) as usual. In the third session, the TPS did not select the target envelope until the session was completed. (2) (S-NF) Immediately following the session, the remote viewer and interviewer obtained the target envelope from the TPS and proceeded to the target site, rather than waiting for the usual return of a beacon individual (s) . (S—NF) The results of these three sessions have never been evaluated by anyone other than the participants. Aside from having removed the constraints of being "for the official record" or waiting for nebulous feedback from a distant beacon individual, these sessions provided the participants with the opportunity to explore new approaches to the interaction between the remote viewer and interviewer as well as concentrate on the correlation between the "true" perceptions and the verbalized perceptions with each other and the target site. Additionally, these sessions paved the way for approaching the type of sessions scheduled for Phase 11. pprove 38 e ease
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Approved For Release 2000/08 DP96-00788R001100080005-8 (SECRET-NOFORN) PROBLEMS ENCOUNTERED (U) in Section 6 (S—NF) The procedures detailed descr ibe the perfectly coordinated RV session from target t h e s e s s ons selection to post—session analysis, Howeve.r , conducted during this Phase I effort did noE necessarily go as planned. This section of the report deals with the prob— lems encountered over thé course of Phase I. (S—NF) The problems related in this section can be those that impact the effi— divided into two categories: ciency of the participants and those that impact the overall The ad hoc nature of this effort quality of the product. each of whom involved a broad spectrum of individuals , approached this task with their own personal beliefs or disbeliefs, levels of expectation and levels of insight and The SRI protocol that guided us throughout this knowledge . program merely outlined the process; only after becoming a part of the process did we even begin to ralize the impact of people, places, events, attitudes and a whole host of Thus, it is the intent other factors on the whole process. of this section of the report to be frank and open in stat— ing the problems we encountered during this phase so that the next group of people desiring to undertake a similar effort may avoid some of the same pitfalls. (S—NF) Problems Impacting on Participant Effici— 9.1 ency (U) (S—NF) As noted in Section 5, two teams, Tl and T 2, were originally established to participate in this Phase Over time, these teams evolved into a I replication effort. This evolution resulted from the four—person core group. interactions of the events and attitudes discussed below: (S—NF) The availability of the participants (1) was a pressing problem, due to travel schedules, leave time, Quite often, the project officer was not meetings, etc. notified of the participants' nonavailability until shortly It then before the session preliminaries were to begin. became a very frustrating rush to find a replacement among the limited number of individuals cleared to participate in the program. (S—NF) Several participants were unwilling to (2) devote an entire afternoon to participating in a session. One participant refused to go back out to the target site for post—session analyses; he said he had more important From that point on, sessions were not held things to do. 39 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 unless everyone agreed in advance to be part of the entire process. (3) (S—NF) The attitude of one of the prime par— tic i pants was particularly distressing to the other members of the team as well as the project officer. Instead of d is— cussing his opinions and feelings prior to the start of the sessions, he began his first session by stating he did not want to have his name associated with the program in any way, questioning the need for the administrative details of the session and, in general, creating an atmosphere of confusion and antagonism. This individual was aware of the fact, as was everyone else, that any written record of GRILL FLAME would identify participants only by an alpha—numeric code, never by name; however , in order to get the session started, the participants agreed to destroy the session tapes after they were transcr ibed, thus removing all mention of names. That was perhaps the worst decision made throughout the program, as we destroyed any concrete proof of the integrity of the sessions. Unfortunately, we did not recognize that fact until we had conducted well over half of the •sessions. The team members concluded that this individual was not very empathetic to the program and his active participation was considerably reduced. (4) (S—NF) Several of the participants expressed the feeling that they could not justify to themselves or their supervisors the time they spent on GRILL PLAME in lieu of other work. (5) (S-NP) one of the participants r ightly informed his office where he would be; unfortunately, he did not tell them that he couldn't be disturbed. Consequently , the ensuing session turned into chaos as other people walked in and out to see the one participant, destroying the concentration of the remote viewer and reducing the effectiveness of the session as a whole. (6) (S—NF) The general attitude and well—being of all session participants impacts on the conduct and outcome of the sessions. Several participants have come into a session with the events of the morning, the events of the next day, personal problems , being their pr imary In most cases, this was a reasonable and natural concern. preoccupation; however, there were a few cases in which the concerns totally overshadowed the intent of the session. The sessions conducted under those circumstances were not as " successful " from the participants points of view as other sessions conducted under more relaxed circumstances . The participants ' pprove reluctance to say they did not really feel up 40 e ease
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Approved For Release to participating in a session was overcome as the sessions sessions were postponed until everyone thus , progressed ; felt comfortable about participating. (S-NF) Location (U) . 9.2 (S—NF) Sessions were held in any reasonable loca— Bldg 392 Conference Room, Bldg t ion available at the time: 328 Conference Room, Bldg 39Ø Conference Room, Bldg 394 Conference Room, or any office available if all of the The lack of a dedicated conference rooms were booked. location presented several problems: (S—NF) Even though office doors were closed (1) and signs were posted on conference rooms that a meeting was These interrup— interruptions still occurred. in progress, t ions broke the concentration of the remote viewer and interviewer and it was very difficult to resume a session after an interruption. Also, the fact that two people were occupying a large conference room was questioned upon occasion; on one such occasion, the participants were asked to leave so a larger group of people could use the room. (S—NF) Particularly in an office situation, (2) telephones and conversations were very distracting. For the remote viewer found it in one session, instance, extremely difficult to concentrate on anything but the animated discussion going on outside of the office; minutes of the session were thus unproductive until the discussion quieted down and the remote viewer could con— centrate on the session. (S—NF) The room environment affected each of (3) For instance, Sl found one the remote viewers differently. particular room to be quite distracting due to its cluttered S 2 was not as affected by nature ahd extreme brightness. content of the room, but was more susceptible to room temperature. In November 1978, the location problem was (S-NF) solved with the hookup of the trailer located outside of The trailer contains a large conference table and Bldg 367. Add i— chairs as well as a comfortable couch and chair . tionally, it has its own heat and air conditioning system GRILL PLAME has first priority on use of and no telephone. it is used as a conference room by the trailer; however, other AMSAA personnel as needed and available. 41 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 (S—NF) Equipment (ü) . 9.3 sessions, the start order to (S-NF) dictophone tape recorder was borrowed from one of the offices in AMSAA, as the unit ordered for project had The borrowed unit broke down during one of no-t yet come in. the early sessions and had to be sent out for repairs. SRI lent us a Sony recorder to use until ours arrived, as we were having a difficult time finding another available Our dictaphone unit finally arr i ved in recorder in AMSAA. November 1978 and appears to be working very well. tapes cassette 6Ø—minute original (S-NF) The available through the supply system presented no problem. the tapes began to be Midway through our Phase I effort, The quality of these supplied by a second manufacturer. tapes left much to be desired; we lost an entire session This because the tape unwound all through the recorder . malfunction was not noted by the participants until IØ at that point, minutes of the session had elapsed and, In order to nothing could be done to correct the problem. make sure the problem was not with the recorder, we tested several more of those particular tapes along with privately purchased tapes; again, the problem occurred only with the We thus special ordered some one manufacturer( s tapes. reputable 6Ø—minute tapes and have had no recurrence of the problem. (S-NF) Special Case (U) . 9.4 In one of the latter sessions, the beacon (S-NF) individual was several minutes late in arriving at the target location; he was unfamiliar with the location, had Conse— gotten lost and had to stop to get directions. quently, when the session started, he was still driving to The remote viewer perceived the area the target location. the beacon individual was driving by at that time and it was Unfortunately , that area he described during the session. Thus, the remote viewer 's it was not the target location. descriptions in no way corresponded to the actual target although they corresponded very well to the location, "passing" location of the beacon individual at the start of Unfortunately, the evaluation procedure does the session. After discussing not allow for this type of occurrence. this matter with SRI it was decided to eliminate this session from the pt inciple concept evaluation procedure, described in Section 7.2, as it did not conform to the procedural requirements for an RV session. 42 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-O 88RO 5-8
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Approved For Release 2000/0—DP96-00788R001100080005-8 (SECRET-NOFORN) LESSONS LEARNED (U) (S—NF) The RV process is very dynarnic and personal the elements that comprise these facets in nature; however, of the process are not easily incorporated into a procedural When we first started this Phase I effort, we protocol. inter— were not aware of the broad spectrun of influences, Only through the actions or their impact on the process. experience of being part of the process, along with the interaction among the participants and between the par— tic i pants and SRI, did we even begin to realize the dynamics This section attempts to describe the most of the process. significant realizations, our efforts to deal with them on a personal basis, and our efforts to incorporate them in our approach to the process. (S-NF) Rise Time (U) . IØ.I (S—NF) Rise time is essentially the time between the final scheduling of an RV session with a remote viewer the remote viewer is told he will be and the session; participating in an RV session at a specific time in the Dur ing two days from now at 13ØØ hours. near future, i.e., this rise time, the remote viewer prepares himself for the "heightened session, knowing precisely that his time of awareness" for remote viewing will occur at the stated time it was found to be essential Thus , on the scheduled day. that the session start at the stated time. When a session was held on time, a remote viewer's "heightened awareness" tended to stay high for several minutes and then gradually if a session was delayed for started to taper off. However , whatever reason, the remote viewer's "hightened awareness" tended to drop dramatically after the scheduled time had passed, noticeably affecting the quantity and quality of the This rise time process was remote viewing perceptions. found to be equally applicable to the interviewer. (S—NF) Once having recognized the importance of sessions were very carefully rise time to the RV process, scheduled to meet the availability of the participants. Although the need never arose dur ing the remaining sessions of this effort, all participants have agreed to cancel any The agreement session in which such a delay occurs. continues at the time of this writing. 1Ø.2 (S-NF) Quiet Time (U) . (S—NF) Quiet time is the 15—minute period prior to During this per iod, the remote the start of the session. viewer and interviewer basically do what they feel is best Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 for their individual relaxation, i.e. , they are generally they may either sit and relax with their eyes closed, read a magazine, etc. (S—NF) The concept of quiet time ? has become part of our approved protocol for RV; however, it was not even a cons ideration when this. effort was started. During the first few sessions, the remote viewer and interviewer usually conversed right up to the viewing period and, on several occasions , other people were also present in the It was only after Sl and S 2 expressed their dissat— room. isfaction with this arrangement did we recognize the need for a quiet period without any observers. All subsequent sessions allowed for this quiet time for the remote viewer and interviewer and no longer allowed anyone else to be present in the room after the beacon individual (s) had departed. On those special sessions where the beacon indi— vidual was at a distant location or not even a necessary part of the session, the remote viewer and interviewer were the only participants. 1Ø.3 (S—NF) Remote Viewer/ Interviewer Interaction (U) . (S—NF) The concept of the remote viewer and inter— viewer functioning as a team during an RV session has become an integral part of the RV process and protocols. While the initial RV teams were set up to hopefully reflect a certain degree of compatibility, the natural relationships that developed, and in a large part led to the formation of the core group, more clearly reflect the interpersonal and emotional undercurrents of the interaction between the remote viewer and interviewer that impact so significantly on the entire RV process. (1) (S—NF) First and foremost, the remote viewer and interviewer must respect and trust each other. While this does not mean they have to be the best of friends, it does mean they have to communicate with each other honestly and openly in order to establish the rapport that works best for them. (2) (S—NF) Both the remote viewer and interviewer have to have a positive outlook about RV and work together to maintain a success oriented rapport. (3) (S—NF) The interviewer must be sensitive to what the remote viewer says during a session and, more importantly, to what he says to the remote viewer. This is discussed in more detail in Section 10.4, pprove 44 elease 2 88RO
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Approved For Release 20001 P96-00788R001100080005-8 (S—NF) The interviewer has to allow each (4) remote viewer to develop his own style of remote viewing, keeping his eyes closed, turning out the lights, etc. Basically, the interviewer has to be flexible in order to insure the remote viewer is as comfortable in a session as is possible. (S—NF) Remote *Viewer/ Interviewer Interaction 1Ø.4 Spec Iflcally Durxng the RV Sessxon (U) . the interviewer must be (S—NF) As noted above , sensitive to what he says to the remote viewer and to what the remote viewer says during a session. We have found the following to be helpful in this regards with our core group of four: (S—NF) The vocabulary of the interviewer (1) should not include negative words or words which cue or lead seemingly the remote viewer or reinforce his specific, For example, the interviewer should analytical, statements. not mention words like "failure," "miss," "experiment, etc. (S—NF) The interviewer should provide guid— (2) ance to the remote viewer in the form of suggestions or directions rather than asking questions, although there are The suggestion times where questions cannot be avoided. First, implicit in approach has two very positive benefits. the suggestion is the knowledge that the remote viewer is capable of doing what is suggested by the interviewer . For instance, the suggestion "approach the structure and tell me about it" is a much more positive and reassuring approach than the question "why don't you approach the structure and By the more positive tell me if you see anything? " approach, the interviewer is letting the remote viewer know he has confidence in his ability and the remote viewer Secondly, questions apparently force responds accordingly. the remote viewer to have to consciously decide if he wants to answer the question at all and, if he agrees to answer , he then has to provide himself with the reassurance to do In the case where what the interviewer has requested. questions cannot be avoided, either due to the nature of the interactive conversation or because the interviewr can Vt verbalize what he wants to say any other way, they should be phrased very carefully to avoid forcing the remote viewer to become less descriptive and more analytical or feel as if he is obligated to answer and thus possibly loose some Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 additional remote viewing perceptions. (S—NP) The interviewer has to (3) to each remote viewer individually. For 45 learn to react the instance ,
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Approved For Release 20001 - DP96-00788R001100080005-8 interviewer learns through the remote viewer's tone of voice, facial expression, etc., whether he has confusing or contradictory imagery or whether he is not perceiving any imagery at all. What the interviewer says at this time, or if he even says anything at all, depends on. his knowing the remote viewer's reaction patterns. This is something the interviewer learns only through exper ience and is different for each interviewer/ remote viewer team. This type of recognition also occurs on the part of the remote viewer; for instance, the remote viewer can tell if the interviewer is hesitant about suggesting a new approach and may even request that the interviewer do so. In our experience in Phase I, the interplay described here was developing between 184 and Sl and 1B4 and S2. The latter sessions of Phase I reflect this development. (4) (S—NF) The interviewer has to learn to keep quiet! While this was alluded to above, it is important enough to be mentioned again here. Too much direction by the interviewer may break or reduce the viewer's concen— tration or cause him to be too analytical. 1Ø.5 (S—NF) Tape Recording (U) . (S—NF) As noted in the procedure for an RV ses— s ion, the entire viewing period and subsequent conversation while drawing by the remote viewer is tape recorded. Actu— ally, during the initial sessions of Phase I, only the remote viewing segment was taped; the recorder was turned off when the remote viewer was drawing, having completed the vebalization of his perceptions. Over time, we realized that the remote viewer often mentioned new percept ins while he was drawing and also tended to more fully describe the spatial relationships of his perceptions as he drew. Thus , the original taping procedure was modified to taping what truly comprises the RV session: the verbalization period and the drawing period. (S—NF) A critical lesson learned in regard to tape recording the sessions concerns the tapes themselves . As mentioned in the section on problems encountered during this effort, the participants originally agreed to destroy the session tapes after they were transcribed. It was, at best, a bad decision, as we managed to thus destroy any concrete proof of our efforts and, essentially, our integrity as participants in this process. The situation was eventually corrected and will never occur again; unfortunately, we can never recover the 15 sessions taped and destroyed prior to that recognition. 46 Approved For Release 200 - 0788RO
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1Ø.6 (S-NF) (S-NF) the functions , Approved For Release 20001 - DP96-00788R001100080005-8 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 Role of the Beacon Individual (S-NF) . While a lot of attention has been paid to attitudes and interactions of the remo be viewer and interviewer, very little attention? has been paid to the influence of the beacon individual on the RV process. Just as the timing of the, beacon individual is important to the RV session, so are his attitudes towards and active interaction with the process. (1) (S—NF) Especially for introductory sessions, we have found that the beacon individual has to have a positive rapport with the remote viewer and interviewer. The remote viewer and interviewer depend on the beacon individual to arrive at the target site on time and interact with the target as prescr i bed. Thus , a positive rapport between all of the participants reassures the remote viewer and interviewer that the beacon individual will accomplish his mission and, at the same time , the beacon individual knows he is playing an important part in the RV process, not just wasting his time driving and standing around at a site. (2) (S—NF) While we don't necessarily understand the reasons why, we have some interesting thoughts on the activity of the beacon individual at the site during the 15—minute viewing per iod. In several instances, the beacon individual consciously tried to "send " information to the remote viewer. Our experience has shown this technicque to be totally unsuccessful. Rather, the remote viewer tended to perceive the more natural actions of the beacon individ— ual, such as the beacon individual fiddling with the camera, waving to someone he knew, or concentrating on an object at the site of personal interest which was not really a perma— nent part of the site. (3) (S—NF) The attitude of the beacon individual during the post--session feedback analysis phase is very important. We had several instances in which the beacon individual was more concerned with the guidance not given by the interviewer and/or the perceptions not related by the remote viewer rather than the information that was obtained during the session. This type of attitude does nothing to encourage the remote viewer or interviewer . It does, however reinforce our thoughts on the importance of the beacon individual, particularly during the learning phases of remote viewing. 47
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Approved For Release 2000 DP96-00788R001100080005-8 1Ø.7 However , process, (S—NF) Evaluation Process (U). (S—NF) The evaluation process is truly an art. in order to recognize the fullest potential of the the evaluators must be aware of the complexities, peculiarities and interactions of the total RV process, some of which were related in Section 7 of this report. This awareness develops from reading available literature and established protocols, interacting with remote viewers and interviewers in order to understand their perspectives and and actually doing evaluations of RV sessions. feelings, exper ienced evaluators are critical to the Knowledgeable , potential of the RV process. (S—NF) The three AMSAA evaluators who participated in the Phase I rank-ordering evaluation process were pro— vided a copy of the SRI protocol, a one page instruction sheet which detailed the evaluation procedure , and the target/ transcript packages. They had no interaction with interviewers or beacon individuals . the remote viewers Basically, they had practically no exposure to the RV Under those circumstances , their results process at all. were quite remarkable. (S—NF) Having recognized the criticality of the evaluation process and particularly the need to have knowledgeable, exper ienced evaluators, five interested AMSAA analysts were asked if they would like to participate in GRILL FLAME to form a pool of evaluators. All accepted the offer and are now in the early stage of familiarizing It is hoped that they will themselves with the RV process. not only bring a sense of understanding to the evaluation process currently used, but that they will also provide new insights and ideas that can be used to formulate less frustrating and more effective and efficient evaluation methodolog ies . 48 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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11. Approved For Release 2000 DP96-00788R001100080005-8 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 (SECRET-NOFORN) SUMMARY (U) (S-NF) AMSAA's Phase 1 GRILL FLAME efforts were undertaken to replicate the SRI RV protocol and to gain in—house experience in RV. Kour replication of the protocol did not result in statistical significanee, but, more impor tantly , it did result in a significant amount of learning on the part of all of the participants as well as a recognition of the criticality of the evaluation process. Additionally, we learned a great deal about ourselves. (S—NF) This learning should not be construed to include an explanation of how the RV process works or an assessment of its utility. this learning phase Rather , fostered among all of the participants a sense of the potential of the henomena and, most of all, an appreciation at which remains to e learned. o
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Approved For Release 20 P96-00788R001100080005-8 APPENDIX A Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 (SECRET-NOFORN) GRILL FLAME PROJECT DESIGNATION CLASSIFIED BY: MSC, HQDA (DAMI-ISH) , REVIEW ON: July 19 9 51 (U)
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S-z C R ET NOFORN SU90-CT: VEL. INTEREST S/NOFORN) R CENTLY INCREASED HIGH PARAPSYCHOLOGY/REMOTE VIEWING CPY/NV)i iNHERENT' SENSI- TtVITIZSp NOW 'WARRANT USZ OF-AN UNCLASSIFIED NICKNAME. - THE UNCLASSI- FiED NICKNAME GRILL FLAME WILL REPLACE ANY OPEN REFERENCE TO. uS ARMY THE INVOLVEMENT PY/RV RESEARCH' •APPLICATION, ETC. *PACT OF US ARMY - INTERESTIOR - WORK IN PY/RV CLASSIFIED SECRET FROM THE US "ARMY STANDPOINT, 'A *STRICT CAVEAT NOFORN. Approved For 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 RTTCÄ)'UW RUEADW02240 1861B06-SSSS--RULNAPG. ZNY SSSSS- R 051630z_ JUL 7B TO. R',EKUCS/DIA WASHOC//DT// RUKLDAR/CDRDARCOM ALEXANDR VA//DRCDE/ RULNAPG/C p AMSAA.. APG MD/./ORCSY— Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 i UCDGOÅ/CDRMIA R N ARSENAU ts OPERATIVE XN ANY SITUATION INVOLVING PY/RV. OCDS-2p 31 DEC 200aø NNt 025B atB6 215az 53
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Approved For Release 2 -00788R001100080005-8 APPENDIX B SRI PROTOCOL 55 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release "Æ4NT96-00788R001100080005-8 regard of our prozoeols, apet.:ai eHe basic at:ZZae is as s±vea eutara-ai paper, —Zs Zor •Leal azsie.r over Zicaeeer : aad Cars, aad Recenc Research, E. pp. 329—354, 1976 (4 cavies eacicsed). o: Zhe (a) pool aacä address ceas±.sz C SRI Interrzionai 57 .23 Ravenswood Ave. • Menlo Park, Caitromia Cable: S7ÅNÄäS, Menia Park TVX: 910-372-1246 Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Release 20 1 8 7 •
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seleceioa; (b) ece (e) axpera=entar behavior ;
(d) Labouad expe.r±ence.r behavior; (e) pesc- experi=eaz {aedback;
(S) -Sud gi.zg procedt=e.
(a)
Tar zee ?ooi Selecz±oa:
ouz an exoerizeaeal series of,
say, a sub 3 ece a of outdoor zargees >> a
should be prepared advance by az exper±eaee.: zoe l.aearacz
the sub }ecZ a: eHaz. Tae ez:zezs should be
chosea be disci.a.cz±ve, bue aoc aecessa:lly disalzce each oeha—•
eka: is, ache: zhaz a of sc:eee cozzes one
should select bridges, eszers, ga:dezs, plazas,
so
ehaz a judge priac±pie —ecozai:e ea:gees ehe sasis o:
bue sketchy d eser#eions. Oa the oehe: hazd, one e haylag
ehosez a Souz:ai.z-zype ea:gee, Z.4are should be several fouazaia •
a ezrzez, several *Idge ezrgezs ee-
so eh.az you avoid
eHe su>jecZ sz:zzegy of "I had a egve.: yesZeräay, so e.aa': be a
Zager today." Iz face, the sub iecz should be told explic±zly eha:
ta—zees ce aoc chasea be orthogaaai each ache:
zhe is zade, each tar eet locae±ca should be =zea
a ced -laced az envelope, zhe eaveiopes raade±zed ehez
at—bered so as eo lose aii ezack a: a key. Xese should ahea be scored
a saie ar coaza±.ae:.
regard '*ezher a ecgee is replaced the pooi a:a-•- t.:se
there are ways so. The prese—abie oze Is eo :epiace L 2,
keev aec-replaceeze seaeiselcs by si=ply havizg a very pooi
several s
earge:s, er else a used Ecuaca±
azoehe: Est.=zai.z ea:gec. proble s :epiaceeze
is that the subject vouid, up—a o: a aez:ai 4 —age a
previous zarze:, be :eåec: i: as evez
though replac *kes scae psychologis:s Happy, is
aczt:ally az procedt=e.
CD) Sé Criezzazlaa: Ze fare the
eke st.±åecc should "e
scae previous vievizg oae goal
sac ac:ass Che idea z.hae oze shauid, as 'oese AS possibia
perceptioa :aeåe: e.haz a—alysis, Che eazäs eo be car:ec:
asd eSe tazze: is aigays Roag.
4 aad S iz ahe
paper ace geed e—les, Figure ehe subåeee had ahoiu:eiy zo
egaeepe a pedese:laa overpass, gi=ply sav a paezera recediag
aquares; eHe ea:gez 6 viZh passable draviags iaeerp:ecad
as a evea eHe carree:ly d±aasloaed pools
3 vee as plaaz pools razher
peals. Readizg af book E.=d Reach (targ aad
*Choe , Delacerce >esg, 1977) provides a good as ve go
aea ehls aspec: i.z =ucä dean ve could
papers. Zey zeed '*gee a rot:zded place o: Size
58
-üNCtTSStF-ü
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Page 3 17 1278 Febr Äiörovéd ror 100080005-8 zeta I Is that, zad they shouldatz eo figure cue c*eeher Is zhe e.haz 4 —a g iza- a car fancier before ehey say constitutes ao%e Che caazaei, and therefore the c i csar he caa gec to rav uz±neerpreced zhe bee- TO Suez e g S e.he above, the bese suidel±ae •ae have fat=d Is eo choose as eces are eo be •—oag, zed ee:. No psyeäaiogieal tasa ve have e:ied (aad ve have« ehe= ail) Is as successful as eke above sub: eze±ve assessaez: 'hea eypeå used unevaluated chocs lag acong eHe zosZ successful. A: the scar: az (c) Cut bat-tad Behavior : sessica, •cae iZSOUZd and out Sauza exper±eztars az— suä±ec: should readevous a relaxed chaz the iabcrazory ( outbouzd or exoerizezz-—s —us: e.he ac roseehe: eHey agree a ehe this ) 30 m*auzes heace-—ehe leaseh of requi:ed to searc. eka ft—these ez:ge: eHe pool. ehea aa all ) euzSau.ad the: I eaves zhe lab, uses a raadæ at—be: procedura a . (a—be: a: earzezs poet), ebeaizs the envelope eHe Zazgac pool (prefeaZIy kept by another per sea) aed leaves ehe preises, (Ve tase a Texas Sa-5i Saad has a randoa driviag a-ay the laboraeory, he opeas the envelope eo eSe ta:gez, amd ehae loca suggese he park aza Zhen 'he $ —e so His Is zargez locazioa a: eke Sesa ac experiaez: beg±zi.zg. äe ehez s '-apt y pays azzazz±aa z: z*.e and does zoc Iec his zi.zd wazdec azcehe: aapears aoc —azy people ecp:ise eke ou:Souad ea.— provid9d they don' z (I) :usZ pay each ache: er (2) scazza: Az Che end of zhe a Feed-upga Za:sec vie-hag ed.ae Zhe lab (usually IS ) . Zehavi* : the period eHe (d) ecauca eo zhe eHe labouad aad (Izäot:zd sub j ecz a paciod eo retax zad discuss the Is besz zoz have observers. ) goat eHe experizazee.: eh±s Is 'tsaÉe" Eor Zhe sub: ecz experience cypically includes a lev—key pep ealk as reoze appears be a zae=zl, aoc ahor=al, ehae zany peepia appear zo Yzve äoae evez ehe±: aad aigays the •reiader eo ese.hev azalys±s aad reader Stace ve eh±ak eh.aa Is a ask, like a zhi.zk cakes the azzezz±.re pavers of Che proced=es , should be as 59 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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possible is oa anyth±.g ozhe: thaa the az hand.
hypaosis, ge:obe l±ghes, or seas procedures, sd..zce all
these (aovel) factors cake avay scae of the ecz' s
auch-aeeded a ZZene1ca. We are La 2k 4 s sezse propoaezes of a f
school.
Zhe sub±eet feels acre seeki.zg or a
eup of coffee, vhy aoc? ±ese should be ax:zaged ahead of ci=e, hcveve—
so Chaz ae±zhe: feat exzer±eaea: I eave the roaa
'*Ile vaie±ag the guzSot:ad experi.aeaeer to reach his ea:gee.
Zae experi.=eater should have ahead af
have •ez and
paper available aad• a tape recorder. 'hea the agzeed-
epaz arrives, eHe Izbcuad exper4-•ezze: asks
the sub: ect ' d..=pressiazs cc=e Ziad resa:d c:
•Here the aucbct=d experi.=enze: is.
Yage subjects p;eEa: eo close
ehei—
— eyes, they should s 1.2? i y do ee=es —a eu:aily. Ze roe
II gheiag is prefeably subdued eo prevezz ge
shad*s aa eyelids, eCc.
Is bese ehaz the I-zhouzd axpe.rizeaze:
push the sub jeez say a loe, he aca as they have a I I eSe
Che ver ld; 'Che:-zise, a st.z>åece 2 y eead
dust eo 'oe sayi.ag eo please the experi.ze.a:e:.
I: Zae st.±jec-
eeads eavards hi..ag azalyeical ("I see Yaacy's aa Caniao Real"),
the az.sZ geaeiy lead the sub d ecc Izzo deseripc±oz, aoc
azaiysls. (f' You doatz Fave eo Zell —e väe:e
...s, dust
ycu see. ft) is the i=porzaa: azd ezsk
the i.zbot:zd
Ie also use*i eSe labauad exper±eaeer. eo ' 'surprlset' e-he sub j ec:
aev vlaw•poizzs,
("Co above ehe sceze azd look do-a-a-—väae do yau
vag ioek Za zhe left, do you see?)
For scae :e.asoa, eSe
sub} ec=t3 appea:s ea sh4 —
eapidiy a ques I Ike chis
azd Che daea saeaks before eHe subjec:ts dehzses ace:.vaae
block Ze of vie—poi.a: also obviaees zhe proble
Zhe ecz speadiag etae g±v2.ag decan GA a
siagle blade Fass place of cozcreee, evea e:ze
be ao help ea a Oace a subåec: feels he sees sæeeh±3, he
teads eo ea ea :aeåer a
aeg vla•neiz:.
gub} ece —use be eacot=aged skezeä he gees, evea over his
obftc=loa.s ehaZ he Is zoe az a—else, c.aa't skecaä, eez. Ee zay do so
ehrougäeuz, or vale tacti lasc five zizuzes i..aee=izzaaz
veuid dise:aez eaacza=aelga. Sizee a:aviags eo Se —ere
aea=aee -aeloas eh±s is az eely fae:ar
far goad resuizs.
e) Feed%ack: eHe oueSotæd
e izbot=d aad sub} ecz säauid proceed
eSe feedback. helps eo develop the s
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Jez,
Approved For Release 2B/Gd1åS81klö96-00788R001100080005-8
gezse of 1.2 his aeneai i. s correct ve:sus
and experi.=eze Sor sa chae 'hen he does
a exper±ea:, hls a±ad Is aoc oa goader lag hov he did
aa zhe previous aae.
Cal y a very experienced ect caa
vell ti.=e after Zi.=e feedback, sa eh±s —use be daze
C E) Jud glag æocedt=e:
a sense, all Che aezioz Ia
viev±zg procedu:e is L.a zhe Azy si.agle experi=eae rezoee
viee*zg,. evea per '-c p
cza priac±ple be as possibly
azy rasui: leas e.'.az per iec: be dls-a.±ssed
as a geaerali.zed "g:ass is s: eez Sky Is
eve:y ea:see. Caly d a 3 a: les
o: ta:gees caz pue boch o: these a i resz.
Ze procedures are as
aa experi.=eaza: aac
Izvolved dudgi:g =usz read ahe and delaee
azy :eSceace eo äaz=s ar previous sc eha: a :udge aoc
order eHe cä:oaolosically, zhaz a give—
eaztz be the bcaehoese because the ece aeatioas ia zhe
he Is tookiag ae hiz o: zhe Sca:hcuse
gas eHe previous day r s ear gee. Vieh these d eleeiazs, the
assoc±azed dravi=gs are labeled raadc= order
azd glvea the åudge aze hand, so speak, a I I sz e? che
cards, also a (diüe:eze) at—bered order Is givea eo
eHe e.he ocher hand. Els ehez,
it eo go a za:gee
(physically), read e.h:ough ail zhe azd arde.:
bese eo verse (I 6, say, Chere are six czrge:s
six
Ee ehez proceeds a second size
reorders the sa=e see of bese versa =az+
so ae dudge {s co do eh±s a replacee=:
se=se•; Zä.a= is, even eäcugä he zy have assi—ed a g±vez
as best eo a g±vez he, zy ae aaoeher ea:ge:
eHe best =azch ea eäae one alga.
Zvez though hé logically
couidzte go to both, ve Ziad ±udges Zac: have ao
hesiza:ica a rhce E: s: place, si=ply because
they area t e stre as aze does faec beioag, azd ahey
waza eo zhe besz af zoe z±sslzg a poeez=f.-al
Eased aa ve feel zore appropriaze eo use
az replaceezz.
Sæe a.r3:e via.h ±is, aad aae is
eo=ee: Chea sae eaa use seaeisei:s zae:hi..zs vizhoue replac=eae.
A ap%aaches g±eh eHe appropr'—aee tables is aezachad
the
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Approved For Release 100080005-8 .?age 6 17, 1978 believe the above covers everythi.ag. you or you: colieag•aes Izvalved Ia see=i.zg up and an experi=eae have azy fireher questions, please do ace hesl:aee czaeact ae for further Hy eel ephoze at.=ber (41.5) 326-6200, •e. 3202. Good luck! zh best rega:ds, Seale: Res Ze..s Radio ?hys pprove 62 UNCLASSIFIED e ease
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Approved For Release 2 96-00788R001100080005-8 66 UNCLASSIFIED prove e ease A-RD 001100080005-8
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Approved For Release Approved For Release 20 68 UNCLASSIFIED 7: IA-R
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6-00188R001100080005-8 Approved_ ForReIease 20 131: experiment of Prodect Grill Flame. Sl is the subdect, IBl is the inbound experimenter, 083 and 032 are the outbound experimenters. 0B2 and 033 should be at the target in about an seven minutes. 082 and 083 It is now 1:30 Wei 1 1 begin then. should be at the target. All rfght Sl why don it you dust ax, lean back, take your time and see what you can see. I had a feel ing before we started that 082 and 083 were on a street, a sidewalk somewhere prior to the sight and 082 was fooling with the camera. I don't know how accurate that is but it was dust kind of a strong impression that they waiked, that they parked the car and walked some distance but. When did you get this impression, right now, before we started? Both. Before we started, say 28 after or 27 after. I see. r dust had the feel ing af two of then an the street with the camera and they were stopped fooyng with the camera probably getting to the sight. I don It know whether that, you know, that was a I was tr}dng to think of 0B3 and 0B2 and could af forced it trying to visualize the two of them. There is nothing wrong with that. Yau saw a sidewalk and them fooling with the camera. Thatls not bad. But I get the seem ta be focused on 082 and don't yet have any view of what they are lacking at. Take your time. I have a sorta have the feel ing that they are on a street near same green Eke next to a lawn. I canit yet visualize their surroundi Ail right. You mean you see something green, when you say lawn or grass green. You know something that would get a Tong a sidewalk near a resi- dential area. I get an impression of something like a white like one of the older type houses, hause, like a multi , you know. Often they are put Into apar%ents or you know those big old. 73 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 20NÄS9%b9æ00788Root100080005-8 IBl : IBI: IBl : IBl : Sl : Yes, I know what you mean. Is there anything nct. You say it is one of those older ones, probably well r better not tell you what it is but when you say one of those older ones you say it is a house and it Is white. Yes. And it is Yes. Any coiüüns or anything like that. When you say old for some reason I get this. Well, maybe not columns but porches or something Tike that. I get you. And you saw grass in front. Yes but not what I get the imoression af maybe I get the impression of one close to a street and not very much lawn. You know. Uh huh. Just same green around the street. Any ? I danit visualize any trees like in the front yard or any. You seem to be seekfng it from the front, is there any chance that you can see it fram any other di rection? How about behind the house? In the back, anything there? I get the impression of clutter behind the house. Maybe, sounds strange, but objects behind the house, I don't want to be specific, but like gariage cans or gas bottles behind. utter was a good word. What about if you look around the house, is there anything in the vicinity, on both sides. Like for instance if you go away a little bit further away and right now you are focused In pretty close. If you go a little bit further away you can see more of the surroundings. Is there anything there? r get a feeling that it seems like it is in Havre-de-Grace, you know. I had a feeling before this started that this wasnlt too far fram the btqdge. Uh huh. Earl ier I was trying to concentrate on the two and I got the feel- dng that they had gone something like in that direction and maybe had seen the railroad tracks of something on the way. 74 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000/ 07 : CIA-
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Approved Release 00080005-8 IBl : IBl : IBl : IBl : IBl : IBl : Uh huh. I don: t, I can't really pull back and. Is there anything to the left side or look to the sides. The back you saw that there the right s\de of this: building. was clutter. get the feeling that it is on a cornere That the building occupies a corner of a street. 0K. And maybe about three stories high. Uh huh. I get the feel ing it is maybe not too far from the hospital area there but I don't know. I hate to be too specffdc. If you get the feeling, that is fine. No problem. And ! get the I felt like they were around that area and happen to therels an old building across the street from that but that may be too speciffic. No. Maybe in that area there. You mean on the other side of the street that you were looking there is an aid buildfrtg. Yes. And this is the building I was talking about. It is a white building and those things are built very near the street in some of those old sections there. Uh huh. All H gilt. If I were to attempt to draw it from another view I would something• with either a very shallow peaked roof or flat roof, you know, something that you don't have a sense of the roof from the street but the side of the building very flat with windows. You said before the building was white. Yes, white or off white. White or off white. 75 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved FOFReIeaSö2000 -00788R0011000b0005-8 IBl : But something like an the front, I.'m not sure. whether it would be a porch of dust a. covered way in front, you know. Uh huh. You mean an entrance that is covered. Yes, some sort of entrance. Ite covTd, I' get •the fee} ing it! s either a porch or covered entrance way. 0K, you. have done so well today that I don't have to interrupt too much. Yes. I don it know how accurate the idea of got a feeling of that area before we started so I hope it is not too much oriented to at- tempting to see what I want to see. If you felt this way that's all it fs I mean you don't analyze it, you really have the feeling thatls all. I saw some sort of covered thing and then close to the street. All right. And it could be either a white or aff white brick or. But it is a light color. Or it could be siding or stucco. And you did see some green in front whatever it was, and clutter in the back. Yes, somethfng in the back maybe even a fence of something, you know, a partial screening ar maybe cl utter, cans or scme- thing like that. And the surroundings you saw across the street another building but. It was almost Eke it was next to Harford Memordal Hospital with the parking garage and everything but that may bee speci ffc. got the feel ing that 083 and 082 had to park somewhere and walk around to ft, maybe a block or two. That: s goad. You are real W. coming through today. I im either totally 180 out or I ddd'fair.iy good. So far you have been doing pretty well . You didn't need any encouragement. You got the feel ing from before we started, ght. 76 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 107 : CIA-
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I DP9Q-00788R001100080005-8 Approved For Releas I was trying to visualize Yes. 082 and 083 in the car, you know, IBl : trying to see if t could focus in on one or the other and I had the feel ing that they went off of APG by way of the hospital , you know that route out there. Beldeve it or not the time is almost uo. Tney should be Yes. getting ready. to leave. ...... Yes. It sounds very interesting. I got the feel ing that they czne around this way maybe to on the sidewalk to this place and somewhere in this region was where they were fooling with the camera. Good. 77 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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PS6-00788R001100080005-8 ApprövedForReleas IBl : IBl : IBl : IBl : 7 This Is It is now 1:2S PM experiment of Project Gri 1 Flame. Sl is the suboecc, I cne In inbound experfinenter, *082 and 083 the outbound experimenters. about five minutes 0B2 and 083 will be at the target and then well i start. We had a little problem here, it is now 1:32, we had a problem starting this recorder. Anyway, we are ready to go now. Sl are you ready? Yes Go right ahead. I had an impression some just before a coupTe Minutes before we started that 0B2 and 083 parked and 0B2 was checking her watch before they approached tohe tee I 'm gonna try to set on that. Thatås very interestfng, you're really zeroing in on people there. Something Eke was it they were out parking lot or something and moved toward the side, I tm not getting any impression. You say it! s a parking lot? Yes, I got the impression of something ühite, don It, I can *t distfttguish anything. A1 right, keep looking, we are stfll here. I got the impression of something white like surface like one sees on trailers, you know house trailers or something like that, but You say it is something white, is it horizontal plane in the ground or some kind of a vertical plane like a wail? It is in the verti cal piane. Weil see if that plane has got some kind of a Vertical plane. distinguishing feature, anything, any shape, any height or width. longer than tall . I get the impression somewhat low harfzontal , I get the impression that one end of this is kinda of an aperture, I wouldn't say its a window or a ddor. You mean itis some kind of an opening? Some sort of opening and 79 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved -For Release-20åÆH:$4fi$6-00788R004100080005-8 Is there anything else around there Chat yau see, above it or in front of it? Supposes move back a Tittle bit from what you're I get somewhat of an tmpression of something or maybe something darker near this opening or whatever. I'm not sure whether that Is a continuing part of the structure or, or another structure. How about, does this thing, you know you say, you say at one end of it, it seems like this thing has got some kind of an end. What about above it, you just say it's iow and Iona. Is there anything above whatever that thing is? Weil , I don't get anything. No. don't get anything above. Let me dust concentrate, it is as if that whfte part diminished somewhat but Itra having difficulty getting, getting an image of this. 'dell Tet as concentrate an 082 and 083. Yau seered to have focused on 082 before. Maybe she moved around now so r,aybe thatis why your view is changing. She could have gone around to the back of this whatever it is and take a look from that directftn. Maybe 082 went to the side, I don it know. You might be seeing something different as a matter of fact. Yes. .1B1 : IBl : That shouldn't diminish anything you saw before. I don it haye a very, I had a feeling that, that a part af this you could not exactly that t.he structure is raised or whatever it is is raised off the ground, but that perhaos I get some sort of impression that it is like something that has a either it could be off the ground ar it has some skirting around It or somethina that could cover the fact that this thing is raised up. I see. had a Impression earlier of some steps or something like a wooden3atform. I don't know whether that was, what that was. Thatis alright. well you know so far ypu have seen white. you see any other colors around there, any contrasts? Try to move away from the thing, maybe view it from another di rection, front, rear, back, side or from above. I have difficulty. Let me try to, I have difficulty from above. I seem to stay somewhat on the ground plane. 80 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100
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Approved For-Releas DP96-00788R001100080005-8 IBl : IBl : Sie. IBl : 0K, maybe you are viewing it from the same height as CB2 and CB3. 1 I tend to think that the white part is diminishing somewhat. tend to think of a metallic structure, something Shiny. No, the impression is somewhat that it is, the wails are of a metallic structure like those fabricated industrial . Uh huh. I have a I don't Buildings of that nature you know where its a - get a feeling of like a store oi scr.ethfng, I get mre of that sort of nature, like it is an structure. Is ft solid, I mean is you know a lot of times, do ycu see Yes. soifd or do you see any lines in that wall? Whatever that thing is. Uh huh. Is ft a smooth surface? Mo. Not smooth. Hell there maybe some vert*cal 1 ines in it, not like a board, but There are Enes. Yes, which may be just you know creases in this metallic thing. I do get the impression that it Is possftly, possibly a metal building, in fact the white aspect has diminished somewhat. Uh huh. There may be surrounding ft. A little interruption here. I got an impression of, an impression of a chain Tink fence. Chain 1 ink. Not too far from the structure, maybe even connected to it but not far away at least is withdn view of a chain link fence. would, fairly high, something that has maybe even has a gate to it. 81 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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ApptOüéTFor RéleäSé 20 6-00788R001100080005-8 IBl : IBl : IBl : Sl : IBl : What about when you looked at the metallic part did you see any like a roof or any, in the vertical plane did you see anything above, is there a border,.:an edge? Yes. It does. or slightly rising. But 11m not sure whether itis flat How high does this look? It don't get the impression that itis say Yke a t'N0 story. Some industrial bun dings could be a high one story you know. have imoression you got was something The reason I tm asking is the first Now this metallic part does long and it was longer than taller. it give you the same impression or is it changed now. It could be a different 'dew, it could have been, I had the initial impression that it was, that it was lower than I have the impression now. Uh huh. I have the impression now that it is probably one story but fairly high like you might you know larger buildings one might put equip- ment in •or you mdght do manufacturing in. I assume that they are leaving. We are about out of tdme ST . Do you have Maybe you focus in before on 082 what she did. anything now that you can, dust out of curiosity. Well I got the impression in the chain link area there were articles, materials, or pieces of things, maybe equipment, t don't know, but I didntt get the impression of it being all that orderly. Uh huh. Impression of objects being within the view that I had. 0K. They are probably leaving now the •area. Yau want to make Hey 082 while Sl is drawing there is something a drawing of this. wrong with this record button. Twi-ce I couldn't depress it. When I wanted to depress the record and play, the record didnrt want to go down. You might want to check this. 82 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R0011000
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Approved For Release -2ddWDk$K:iEb6-00788R0011000800Q5-8 TEAM 1 c 184: 1B4: 1B4: 184: 1B4: IB4: TMs is an experiment of Prodect Grill Flame with Si as t e subject, IB4 as the inbound experfmenter and OBI as the outbound experimenter. OBI is on his way and he. should be at the site in about 30 minutes. The time is 00 you feel better now that you have now 1:30, it's all your's Sl. relaxed a little bit? Yes, I get, t sensed earl ier that, I don it know how tah# will go, but I sensed earlier on that ÖBI may have parked his car not too Somewhere close to the site and walked to, walked to the site. in there I had an impression that he was next to a tall structure. That ts a relative term. Structure Tike vertically boarded. Uh huh, is this now or is this before? Sora now too, but I kinda got that feel ing a Yttle bit before too. Like when he was approaching the site. Yes. That he may have been standing by or maybe is standing by a structure, a board, a wood structure of some sort made out of boards. Does it have a color, can you see any kind of colors? Oh, I sensed it might, my impression it might be a soft brown or grayfsh brown type of thing. Any other features to t?ds structure? Poss.fbly fairly large and maybe like a shed of some sort. know it could be. That kind of size type structure. You Yes, maybe not a I say a shed but maybe a rather, maybe a large, large building of that. Let me try to think for a second, Let me try. Sure, take your time. have difficulty gettdng out of my head, t had an earl fer image and it I don't want to. 85 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For: Release-200 -00788R001100080005-8 184: Sl : 184: 184: 184: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: Were you precogni zing? Thatls what I'm afraid af and I Irn afraid that might be. Well why don it, 0K. Why dontt you relax a few minutes and r was precognizdng, might as well lay it, I was precognizing perhaps I got the impression of boats. Like a 00 you get that same impression now? Yes, I guess I do, I get, i had earlier an impression of being near boats and So therefore therels water somewhere. Yes, I guess. You might draw this conclusion. But I had at an earl ier, you know just before, just before we started, I had an impression of boats. 0K. I don} t know whether OBI drove around an area coming up to the site that had boats or that it was a precognition sort of thing of boats. 0K, well why don tt you relax or do what you want to do and see if that same imagery comes to you now. I guess the structural impression I had that perhaps OBI is in walking around whatever this structure might be as opposed to like level grass type thing that there's some perhaps intermi ttent grass and but a 'rough surface like it might be partially gravel or partially dirt or something like that. 0K. I get the impression that this structure at least on one side faces is a on one side it looks toward a relatively open area. Open as Eke a field open or as 1 ike water open or No, something Tike it might, as you might have an area toward before you get to the water or something like that. 86 UNCLASSIFIED
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96-00788R001100080005-8 Approved For Release 2 184: Sie. 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 184: 184: 0K. Are you looking at the front of the building? I don't I think I tm looking at, probably looking at the. side. get the impression of any windows. 0K. Can you shift degrees or 180 degree, well preferably 90 degrees around the building. We seen to have this great. affinfty for rear end buildings and side buildings and I get the impression of some wooden steps, maybe a little beat up. Is this part of the building also what you saw verti cal boards. 0K, you mentdoned that when you were lookfrg the view that you saw was you know over same open fieid, let's say before it got to some water surface or something. Can you see anything in that parti cular area I mean is there anything off to the left or rfght of it? ltd say off to the right therets a large tree. This is defini tely not a manicured area. My impressions are it's kinds of a rough. type area. Any other features? There may be some sort af platform around on one side of the bud 1 df nge 0K. A platform on one side of the building. Of some descri ption. Mauld you like to put what you've seen so far on paper, , or do you want to wait a while. can Letts wait dust, let's wait a 1 f ttie bit on that. 0K. What's so we There may be an iron rail or something .or same posts or iron posts an the platfom. Any specific texture to the platfom? Could be cement. 87 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2bbRHS8Æ99.6„00788F001400080005-8 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 134: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 0K. Could have a ramp or something. might be wood, I don it know. 0K. I lm not real sure that, part of gut looking from on the ramp side there's a some open space and then I think there's another building. I danit know, I canit sense too much about that, whether But there's some other structure. raerets some other structure, yes. 0K. Can you, you know before we were looking aver the fiat area leading to an open area. Can you sorta look the other way, possibly like go tz the other side of the building and look out? I kinda get the feeiing you have to kinda Tike this structure doesn't, you don't just drive off the street right on to you know right on to the structure, that maybe you, the street is a little bit aways. 0K. Thereis a street nearby? But itis nat like, structure is not right on the Yes. street. 0K. Is this also sort of a rough area or is there Yes. The whole thing. Yes, pretty much like itts maybe potholes or something like that. 0K. I get the feeling the structure is at least two stories. 0K. Do you have any feel for OBI? I had a feéTing earlier on OBI, I think when he got out of No. his car I think he almost forgot tbe camera. I think you have an affinity far the cåmera. Yes, something like that. 88 -UNCLASSIFIED
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Approved For Release 2 96-00788R001100080005-8 Sie. IB4: sae. 184: 0K. Before you mentioned that you weren't too sure of the image of boats was something you precognized or was coming in at this time. Do you have any, you know now that we Ive gone away fran that for a while. I have less of an impression now that we have gone. Less of an impression, 0K. Less OF an impression now that we've gone away from it. It's possible OBI might have passed somethfng a70ng that line. Might have, or it Tight have dust been, you know my thoughts before hand. 0K. Any other things that you see, any colors of any kind? I get the impression of a mayte a white sign wflth the paint flaking aff or sartething like old, you know. Sounds like this entire area is havfitg a problen. Sounds a 1 ittle, you know black painted lettarfng or something like that. 0K. Do you have any idea of what it inside the building af chis main structure that you have descrdbed. Any feel at all? It could be some sorta of storage or something there but it also gives the impression that it might be some sort of comercial operation, but I kinda get the impression of things stored, you know. I don't kncw 0K. Can you take like a broad view of the area. if we've tried to do that before where like sorta stand back and get this big picture type thing and if you can, can you see any other features t.hat we haven rt discussed yet cr get the impression of some small windows. on this first structure? On this initial On this structure, I get the impression of some small windows . 0K, would the lower I guess a window up they be like high on this strycture or down towards end of the structure? couple down below and maybe a small window, sman hi gher. 89 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For RetyseWWQé#Sff+OP96-00788R001100080005-8 184: Sie. IB4: 184: 1B4: 184: pprove 0K. I get the feel ffng of a truck. A truck? Yes. 0K, where at? Not too far from, not too far from the buffding. Sorta like maybe parked off in a distance, you know. I don't know, maybe it artqved or is parked or perhaos a large truck, either one of those platfom dobbies or one of those stake sided things. 20 you see any ather people at ail? No. 0K 9 do you have any feel for what CBI Is doing now, or where he I have a feel ing he mfrht be either close to the building or going to go in the building. Qh, he might go in the building. Uh huh. Huh, do you see, I know you said you saw one tree sorta, any other greenery type images? Keu there maybe some weeds not too far away from this place. Alright, 0K. r get the impression at some distance things get a 1 ittle neater, that there maybe, I don tt know how far, but some distance away there maybe neater residential, you know, the impression not all that far from some residential area. 0K, Sl, well OBI should be headed towards his car. Any last minute, any things that you would like . to add, any last minute things that you see or No, I t 1 i try to draw it. 0K. 90 UNCLASSIFIED ease
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Approved For ReleadJ 100080005-8 TEN" 1B.3: 183: 1B3: 183: 1B3 : 133 : 1B3: This is an experdmänt T ftüe is now 1:55 of Prodect GRILL FLAME. cne subject, IB3 as the inbound experimenter and 0B4 as the outbound experimenter. • 084 should be there in about five minutes and wel start the experiment then. 0K, thatls the record. By the way don't hold back 0K, want to describe. 0K, its now 2:00. Change your mind if you want to. on anythi ng, 0K, trying to take a second and try to see if I can find 084. I am not getting very much in the way of any images. Feelings, or vertically. I have a feel ing of OB4 near his vehicle right now. Maybe I can go with that but he's, he' must be in a place that he's not far from I am not sure that outside knowledge, I happen to his vehicie. have that he has, I know that he has a pickup, but I have a sense that he is near his vehicle. Anything else ciose? I have •a feeling that it let me dust try - Not yet, I don't, I - is rather open as opposed to a rather open area. I do get a sense of perhaps a greenery, meaning that it is an open type situation. How close is the closest obdect of greenery to the• vehicle? I'm I don't know, I think maybe I dust need to relax a bit more. not getting much of anything. Try either looking at an overview or finding a sense of detail . t get, if t get I get a sense of water nearby. I don ft. Is there any sense of color with that? The gi•een, like I say, my first image was 0B4 next to his vehicle and the facing, perhaps facing an area of greenery. Later, you know, I was tal king about an image of water, perhaps he's beside a lake or something or a small pond%" 0K. think a minute and dust gather impressions. trying. I don't want to get images of specific places encroachd ng. 93 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 96-00788R001100080005-8 133: IBO: 133: 183: 1B3: 133: 183: 133: 1B3: That aught to be all right. In the far field I perhaps aparäents , structures. I get of dark browns. 0K, Does this make Or just a portion? That would be dust wouid get, I get the imoressicn of structures , or something like that, denser, a denser type the sense of that as in tens of color, In tems up the who ie horizon. a portion of the area there. You mentioned water, is that in the same direction w\th the sense of water? Yes, as if CB4 were, ff he were to face in one direction he would look over that part that might be water and the far horfton would be structures of that type. Do you hear anythfrlg, any sense af sound? No. 0K, look down at your feet again, do you see any impression oi I would say that where he might be or around the Imedi ate area would not be as apposed to a •park filg, a hard surface thina, that he would be maybe in an area of gravely or dirt or scmething like that. Not too far, I get the impression that he'd Se not too far from a main road, but. Try the business• of, Ch, which direction is the sun? Hell maybe I am on the wrong, well I guess the sun would be away from. Say if you have in the far hori zon and same greenery and somewhere bet'.veen here and here would be, say i ike that, scmewhere between here and here, 0B4 would be located. That would be the water in the far field would be - P,hereis the sun? Brown structures. Square. Are you looking into the sun this way? No. 0K, Away from the sun? 94 UNCLASSIFIED pprove
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Approved For Release 96-00788R001100080005-8 1B3: 1B3•. 183: 183: 183: 1B3: 183: 183: 1B3: And the sun would be over Nere and then CB4 would be located some- where around here. Oid you say like gravel underneath or. Yes, I would say. I would say the area here would be gravel , di rt, not a paved surface, and that he would be from a roadway over here. In this picture, you got the impression that hets looking. I would' nt know what the object would be, whether the abject, whether there dould be, I would sense that 084 might Se near a recreatdonai facfiity that could be something, maybe even a picnfc table, cr I hate to be specific. Did you get an impression cf some 0K, you say picnic tables. geometry associated with that or dust the idea? Was that a sual idea or verbal idea? Well , somewhere in the further field perhaos, there maybe you are right maybe that Is being too sped fic in that. Donit worry about it. That there would be something that could be maybe it could be a picnic table or maybe it could be eaui pment, recreational eauip- ment or somethfitg like that in the near, not too far field, you know. Let me keep you straight as far as when you are getting too specific. Cust say what comes into your mind and don It worry. 0K. Itis difficult to, but I had a sense, the most predominant sense is that OBA himself is in a rather ooen area. 0K. The dominant sense is that in the Go ahead with what you are Try to draw what! s in that directftn. saying. In the other sense that any condestéd area or more structures is in further field from him and that scmewhere in the intervening Imagdne that you are here and now turn around. 95 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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1B3:
tB3:
1B3:
1B3:
133:
133:
133:
1B3:
0K.
Turn around and look in the other direction and see what you can
I would say that in the other direction there would be probably a
fence somewhere, maybe across the road.
Somewhere in the other
di rectdon there would be a fence.
Draw a fence.
0K. Out of wire and posts and in the far field in this rectfcn
would be a rolling terrain and I don't know whether fts perhaos
nixed vegetatdon could be like
- I don't have the sense of it being
bare or if there - you know its not like something thatas .just
plowed, it's either, its also in greens.
Is this land high or low?
Relatively high, as opposed to here at the proving ground, its
relatively gher ground.
0K, once again you can go with 084.
Wei i I had a sense of the fact 0B4 {snit doing a lot of activity.
How's our time? Let's see, why don't you draw something else in
there.
I canit really think of anything myself.
0K — Overview
Can you get a terrain layout or directions to places from this
location, as if you were looking straight down on the sight? Any
feeling for that?
No, I can't, I have, I don It.
0K.
Is there any small obdect that Is of any importance in this
imediate area?
Maybe posts somewhere along here, not too far from where.
You want to label the posts.
0K.
0K.
I think that's about it.
Sense of color, one last thing,
mentioned green ,
96
sense of color, other than you
UNCLASSIFIED
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E
IBl :
IBI:
IBl :
2
dect GRILL FLAME with Sl as the subject, OBI as the outbound experi-
menter and IBl as the inbound experdmenter. OBI left here a few
Helll be there
mdnutes ago, he should be at the target at about 1:30.
IBI, will be interviewing Sl
Our*ng that time I,
for IS minutes.
It is now 1:30 and OBI should be at the target. 0K Sl why don't you
Let
Take your time.
What you see.
dust relax, lean back and
- don* t try to force it, dust relax. Whatever
me make a suggestion
comes to your mind. Would you like me to give you a hand?
Yes, I thdnk I would.
Do you see a shape, Yne or anything? Do you see any color?
No, I haven't I am almost I 'm really sort of a blank but it is ai-
most as if something is about to come.
0K, dust a minute letis wait.
And I think maybe your idea of attempting to focus me an what I
might see.
I 'pauld say don't try to think what you are seeing, dust do you see
any 1 {net any outl ine, ar any kind of shape ar any kind of color?
Whatever dt is, even if you say I see a straight 1 ine.
I am trying not to predispose myself to something but if I see any-
thing I see some darkened, darkened shapes like silhouettes of it
is aimost 1 ike sdlhouettes, silhouettes of equipment.
dust let yourself go, don't try to figure out what it is.
You see
silhouettes, do they have any specific shape, are they square or
round?
I guess what I see is almost like tank silhouettes or something with
a t.ibe on it.
Yau don't have to worry, but it looks some-
Don't worry what it is.
thing like a tank.
Yes, something with a long tube on d t.
0K - Haw about take a look can you tell me any color, is there any-
Is it dust sitting one thing or
thing else around that you can see.
is there a lot of things sittdng around there?
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I guess the only image I see really is sort of against a neutral
backgmund. That that I do see it is not like I see a fixed scene.
I am not sure that it might be one or t'd0.
Why don it you descrdbe what you see if you want to.
r guess what I see is scmething like this and I saw different foras
of that. Something like more round like this.
Uh huh, 0K but it is stdll tank - whatever it is.
But I found that if I had an impressdon of background at all ,
it was
almost as if there was something like that could be didn't see
col or.
0K. But was there something around it?
•And it could be Tike clouds or it could be a tree.
0K.
But t felt that around that area there it could be either a tree
background or a cloud background.
I saw reel ly I did not see this
detail .
I understand.
I saw
Cont t worry about the detafi .
A black a very silhouette.
Donte try to ffgure out what it was.
It doesn't make any difference,
you shouldntt. Letis try some more Sl or we can get lost in the de-
tail here. How about if you shift your v dew to another direction.
Let's say you go to the left from where vou are. Or if you don't
see anything from the left go see from above or go to the right.
I still that: s all I see I still when I look on this last thing.
1
saw if anything something like from the front.
0K. How about if any road maybe or do you see any character#tics
of the terrain where these things are, is there any water? like in
the background you saw some trees maybe pr maybe cicuds. Look around
you, are there any houses by any chance •or any other shade and as
far as those are concerned are there any roads nearby? Look around
any of the shapes that you see.
I guess that: s the hard part is I don't see that level of detail.
I see if any of the shapes are really silhouette type shapes and
defining a background is diff{cult.
pprove
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Approved For Release 200 -00788R001100080005-8 IBl : IBl : IBl : IBl : 0K - How about if you look from the top, try take a look from the top, if possible. It appears you are looking from the sdde. Yes. But if you take a look From the tap i ike 50 feet by 100 feet above, what do you see on the bottom? See I try to think of haw of what of OBI more. I don; t see Yes, why donat you think of OBI , or even another thing if you saw those shapes that were like tanks can you get a little closer? Can you tell anything more about those shapes or if OBI fls there can you tell me anything about OBI? 00 you want to take a break first or look at the shapes maybe you can get I am not really gettfilg any Images. You are not getting any additional images? Can you see colors if you look in that background where you saw those rounded type things? Are they 1 f ght or dark? No, they Ire dark. Tne background was lighter, much much Tighter than those things. All right, at any rate it is about a quarter of and I assume that OBI is gonna there. Whatever details you can renember you can add now. I got the impression that this could either be clouds or smoke or it might even be trees. That was my feel ing and at times it seemed 1 (ke it was conceal ing a portdon of the silhouette. We will stop this naw and Ail right it looks good enough to me. see how it came out. UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For I EIE%p96-00788R001100080005-8 1B4•. 184: IB4: 1B4: 184: TEAM 1 This is an experiment It!s about 1:2S of Prodect Grill Flame with Sl as cne subject. IB4 as the in- bound experimenter and 08-1 as the outbound experimenter. OBI should be at the site in about 4 minutes and we'll start then. Just relax and take it easy. ttihen you think Itis now 1:30 you have something or can if you find OBI any"here dust let me know. I don it I get the impression 081 is walking around somewhere. have any distinct feel ings af where it might Se yet. 00 you see any sort of structures or greenery of any kind. No, I don It, maybe just relaxing I don't have any. I teil you •what, why don It you dust relax awhfie, take your time. I get the feel ing of that a I don't have much perspective on an area, I get the feeling af some sense of white object. t not sure what that Do you any size feel ings about this object? Fairly, fairly large but I have the sense that OBI is pretty close to it. Perhaps, I also have the feeling of tiles which is kinda strange but In what relation to this white object? Perhaps associated with the white object, perhaos some sort of tile along the edge of the roof line or somet.hing or other, or I tm not sure whether it is tiles or it could be brick or something. You know as if it were a white structure with a brick edging. 0K so this tiles or brick you are seeing is a darker. It's darker in relationship and appears to be around the Yes. upper edge of this particular object. Do you have a height feeling about the obdect? I don it feel like it is over a story high. 0K. I have also a feeling of a of a single well af an entrance around to one side or I have a feel ing of OBI being along sorta of like almost a white wall there. 103 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 1B4: IB4: IB4: 1B4: 184: IB4: 1B4: 184: Uh huh. But then around to the left side af it I have a-feeling that there's, I get the feeling of some sort of an entrance. 0K. Do you see anything around the building, like in front of the building? I assume you are ground level with OBI at this point. Yes, I am ground level with OBI at this point. Itis almost like there was a parking on the side of it but maybe a smaller, smaller area around the front of it. And the front of ft I tm not sure what. The same sort of surface as the parking area you mean. I'm not sure. 0K. i In not sure. aut the front ts probably a different, I donat get the same feel ing of the structure around the front of it. 1 think the front of it is probably darker, a darker shade. Do you see any texture, any difference in texture? Yes, it see-ns like a rougher texture cn the front but maybe it's dust a matter of color sometftnes. 0K. Is the front, you say the front is darker than the rest of it, how does the front compare with your tiles or brick? It could be it could maybe be a brfick front on the structure. 1 have a feel ing that this area overlooks perhaps another area. don* t have much of a sense of there being a lot real close on to this particular, this structure. So, In other words, you see this structure as being in sort of an open. In, perhaps in the higher, perhaps somewhat higher than it's surroundi ngs. 0K. not sure about that. Can you see. There! s something, I get the sense that there Is something tall r:zybe as a tower or some sort of structure nearby the building. not sure what that is. pprove 104 UNCLASSIFIED or e ease
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What direction is that in relation to the building? Can you pin-
point that, right, left, hack?
Weil may right and behind of the structure.
0K. Do you think you might be äble to try and maybe get a little
closer to the structure see if therets anything that identifi es
the structure, any identifydng features to it.
I get a feeling that there's a 1 tmi ted amount, perhaps even no
windows on the side but that there could be a couple af large
windows in the front and I sense that a recessed, a recessed tyoe
door•way. There's either something very close to one of the
in front or i tas perhaps even letterdng on a window. not sure.
I don't see that all that ciearly.
00 you have any color sense?
Either a yellow or a beige around the window area. Maybe faded
low.
00 you have any other
Youlre really hangfrtg on in there Sl .
perceptions of this structure at all?
I would have
I have di fff culty sensing any sort of a roof.
thought, I would expect to have a little more clearer, clearer
image of a roof but I don't. Possibly, possibly it is flat.
What, do you have a feel for the shape of this structure?
Yes, I think it's a long, I thdnk itis a long retangle.
0K.
Possibly toward the back {t: s maybe not well kept, itis grown up
a little bit or something.
0K, so you have some feel of some greenery or something back
there.
Yes, probably so.
00 you have any feel at all as to what might be in the structure?
Do you see anything inside of ft?
I think it might, it might have sométhing to do with electronics
But a,
or maybe even some sort of, some sort merchandise.
possibly a store of some description.
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Approved For Rélease P96;00788R001100080005-8 184: 1B4: 184: IB4 : 51 : 1B4: Sie. IB4: 1B4: 1B4: Itis not too far from some houses perhaps. So you see other structures in the not too distant. Weil vaguely as if there ts perhaps another road or a 0K you see a roadway, Yes, I think there's a roadway that runs not too far from the 7cng side of the structure. 0K. Possibly there are some houses there. You want to possibly draw your structure and where the road and this other tall object that you saw, you said it might be a tower ci same sort, something like a tower. Something like this, and And this might be like a recess and a doorgay and perhaps windows. Itra not sure whether there's, the only thing I 'm for sure I shouldnJt draw that in because I think on this side of the door-nay there's probably a wi ndow. And I perceive that there was some parking T Ike along here per- haps in a shorter area on the front. 0K. And some tail . So you're saying that the side with the recessed door,vay is what you're perceiving as the front. Yes. 0K. And possibly there! s a roadaay that goes back this way and some houses. 0K, if youtre looking at the front of this, can you turn yourself say 180 degrees and see if you can see anything over there. 106 IJNßLASSlFlED pprove
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Approved For-Releas.e. P96-00788R001100080005-8. 1B4•. 1B4•. 1B4: 1B4: IBA: 0K. No, 11m not - Perhaps tn the far dd stance, af curse I have trouble with near and far field, b.ut there's perhaps an older, an older structure and maybe even across the road, 11m not sure, About that older structure possibly has some trees, some trees are either around it or nearty. There might also be somewhere near the not too far from the structure, an area where there are a bunch of cars. 00 you have any feei ing of motion? No, I don't, I don't pick uo motion very much. Perhaps over, perhaos over in this region in relationship would be some cars. 0K. And then this area also you are saying is some sort of parking. Itis probably a parking lot, I sensed it may have been around the side somewhere with his car. 0K. Can you view, 0K, you I re looking 180 degrees and you saw some- thing out to here, right? Can you sorta turn around from that point and look back on your original structure and see if you Is that suooosed to be see anything in the wider field around it. t shouldnrt• say tower but a tall struc- your tower? or seme tall , ture of a kind. I have probably drawn this too tall perhaps, but some- Yes, tall, thing higher than 0K. 0K. We still have a couple of minutes. 107 That's it. UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 9.6-00788R001100080005- 134: IB4: 184: 1B4: It is 1:15 = This is an experiment of Prodect GRILL FLAME with Sl as the subject, •124 as the inbound experimenter 0B3 as the outbound experdmenter. 083 should be at the s•ite in 0K, it is now about 1:30 S 1, dust relax and take about 15 minutes. your time and see what you can descrfåe. 0K. I sensed earl ier about 22 after that 083 was in a built-up sort of area and he was either looking for a parking place or he was to find a place to, either find the locatfon, or find a place to get near the location. 00 you have any feeling af him now? let concentrate a little bit. Mo, I don 't, Let me see, Sure, take your time. The only feeling I have is that he's perhaps outside. What $ ves you that feeling? I guess outside in the sense that there is, it appears built uu around him as if one were on a street and that there were, say like, store fronts or You see some sort of structure? Well at least I have a sense, I donat see a structure, I have a sense that You have a sense? Beforehand is perhaps a series of connecting structures . Can you tell me anything about the shape or the calor or - of the structures? I get the feeung more 1 tke ft is something 1 ike a downtown No. area where it is very built-up, the structures are right together. Any identdfying features that you can see? 00 you have a feel ing of, are they, you know, what geometrical shape they are or. Yes, My sense is that they are, and perhaps it's by the aspect, that they are retangular in different prooortdons, like one finds when stores are one next to another. Some iarge versus small . 109 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved-For 2000WGlANbE000788R001100080005-8 Sia. 184: 134: 184: 184: 184: Some large versus small, some high mof versus Tow roof and things Tike that. Do you have a height feeling at all. I feel that my senses that these might be two-story structures. I sense that hets on maybe the middle of a b Tock as opposed to a comer of a block and that maybe the structures which he is facing have large windows. 00 you haye any feelings, or temperature feelings. You said before you thought he was out fn the open. Not specifically. ! tend to look, I tend to feel that these are rather neutral colors I f ke these fom stones ar stuccos or things that tend to be relatd vely neutral. 0K. 'Ahat perspective are you deal ing from, are you ground level with him? Ground level . Ground levei . Do you think you could pass ± Ty shift either go degrees rqght or left or possibly go up and see what you can see from an upper perspective. I have difffculty with upper perspectives. 0k, fine. Do you think you cauld either shift degrees? Let me try ft, let me try to shift. Whatever you feel comfortable with. I have a contrary feel ing on, a contrary feeling to the idea of a built-up like a downtown area, that I don It sense, I doate sense traffic which is kind of odd. I don It sense a business of the exterior, if it Is the exterior. 00 you sense other people? Do you sense 033 moving around possibly or other people being there, you know, as opposed to let's say, you said traffic that you'd f find downtown, cars rushing by per see No, I don It - I sense more as tf seeing from his perspect+/e as opposed to sensing him particularly. 0K. That's very interesting. Approve 110 UNCLASSIFIED e ease
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Appröued For. Release 184: 1B4: 134: 1B4: 1B4: 134: 1B4: 134: 1B4: 1B4: I sense that perhaps he has moved along this fomatian of structures but I donlt sense his orientation more than I sense him. Thatts very interesting. Like I say, this contrary, this contrary feel ing of a relative lack of business or quietness ts contrary to what my Image of where he might be is. Weil, where he is is not necessarily all that important, but you have a feel of structures, light colored structures, about two stories in height and With large lower story windows. Do you see anything around? I had a feeling earlier of an overhand. At least on one of the structures that could be like a large sign or, you know maybe that is too much, too specific. Do you see sort of like a shade versus brightness. Yes, I would whatever is overhang has some yellows in it. Ch, very interesting. Any other color feel ings? Perhaps black and perhaps white. Huh. But I do sense that, the impression I had earl ier was kinda strange. Strange in what way? Well I wasn't sure how much confidence to piace in that sort of thing. Just say what you feel . That tends to be too specific. No, not really, not necessarily, the coRors, the brightness versus light. They say that there(s a certain pattern in colors that are identifiable before other colors, Tike the light and the dark, black and white, dim and bright are normally fairly well ident*fied, so dust sorta say what you feel . 111 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved ForRe+easé [ALS*fåO0788Rob1100080005-8 184: 1B4: IB4: 1B4: 184: And I sense that there is probably, I don't know how thist there might be scme outside seating, either some sort of fixed place where which one can sit down. 0K. Do you have a feel tng of material at a T 1 as to what would comprdse that. I have a feel ing that• scme• part of ft is wood and that perhaos another part but that Js not in the original direct view. I think that's somewhere else, but nearby. Nearby, 0K Near where 083 can see at least and that maybe there are scme people sitting by - at least one or two, 00 you see any vegetation at ail around the area or have any feel for any type per se greenery? Now there may be, it ds passible that there's some, a tree or like you find on a street that's into the sidewalk or perhaos there are some minor shrubs at the periphery. Do you think yould maybe want to draw that and sort of show where you see the structures versus like Nhere you saw the seating. Yes. I sense that scmewhere Y ke this and this would be like a street. And structures are varyfng like this on out and somewhere near the center is a building with a large window in it. Like some of these are t'H0 story with windows. Uh huh. And I sense greatest 083' s perspective from icoking this way and that was an observer and I sense that over here scmewhere perhaos are some sort of seats. So that's sort of across the street, or what you: re sayfng is across the street. Perhaps across the street. So you do have a feeling of a street being very, very close. Now aver here ds an, an open area. pprove 112 UNCLASSIFIED or e ease
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: CfÄ-*äÖPS6-OOi88RÖ01100Ö80005-8 Approved For ReléäSé SIA. 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 1B4: fflttÅSSlFlED But I tm not sure. IAhere did you see the trees or the shrubs that you were describing? Probably along here was a tree, this is a view looking down. 0K, you want to label right. And maybe, I don It know, maybe scme shrubs around here. 0K. And I sense that back this building, this is probably a building here, and I would say of light materials that are rather blocky, heavy structure. 00 you have any contrast in color be%geen this new building or this new stncture versus the oHgina1 structures? Any contrast in color these WOU1d Se darker. The original ones are darker. These or#inal ones would be darker. Do you see any small obdect. And older. Ot der. These are older structures, this is a more r;odern structure. What gives you that feel? very interesting. Well I think this is perhaps, I dust feel a squareishness here as opposed to the more odd shaped version, that's why I would say older. This would be a more modern building and these would be older buildings, they tend to be more cluttered together, jumbled together type and each with more or less their own character, perhaps modifi ed but Do you see any like any small obdects? I would say a sign but something like an overhang, a sign or something like that over here. And thatts where you had your color feel ings coming from initiany. Yes. 113 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approvsd For Release 200 -00788R001100080005-8 Very interestdng. periphery of this No, thatls about of the structures something. 'Acoden steps. Is tal king about? Do you see any other details of the surrounding area ? if there's perhaps there should be some, one may. have some old steps, perhaps wooden steps or that on the original set of structures you were On the originai set of structures. Do you see any, you know, you say you don Ie see anything more in the periphery necessarily, but do you see any more details of the structures? Can you sort of zero in on the structures? I tended to think initial Ty that they were, that the structures were rather neutral , but perhaps that was, scme of then might Se brick and maybe darker in colors, but I guess maybe my neutral thing was more texture as opposed to color. No feeifng of suprene roughness or anything like that. No, itis relatively neutral in that asoect, Sut some of them may be. Uh huh. And it might be might have some Do you have any do you have any structures? the ou, wood or feel at feel 1B4: 184: IB4: you know, red brick or some of the.m fom stone but rather neutral . I know this sort of a little f ferent, at all for what mfrht be inside the Yes, I kinda feel i ike theyire stores or ccmercial type structures. Perhaps cne of them. 00 you see people or objects thag give you the impression of a store or comercfal enterprise? The big window thing, I get the impression that there are per- haps comercfal goods fn that structure. I sensed earl fer that maybe there may be Very interestftlg. No, no that: s just I have a feeling a You have a feel Ing structures being, a bank not too far away, scmething like that. how da you sense a bank? maybe its related to the comercial thing, but bank is around the corner at least. of a bank. So it's not necessarily one of those 114 UNCLASSIFIED
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Sie. 134: Sie. IB4: IBA: 1B4•. Sl : 1B4: 1B4: -00788R001100080005-8 No, not necessarfiy one of those structures here. Can you show on the drawing approximately where you think the bank I think there's a bank around here, maybe around this part of it. 0K. Kinda tike around the corner. to you have any feei ing of motion? No that's rather odd, thatJs why I think. Or people of any kind. No, I danit have, I don't have any sense of other people. you stdil have a sense. I said there m#ht be a coupie of people sitting. Uh huh, but that would be sort of a stationary feeling. That: s a passive, that's a passive thing see. Ri ght. And I don It see, you know, I don it see a lot of people activity for some reason or other. I tm just kind of Sort af interestfrtg. I don't see vehicular activity which is kind of off. But you sense a road. I sense, yes, I sense some sort of road, well, not so much .a road specifically as I sensed eari fer 083 was observing toward these structures. 0K, and that Tagically one might think a road is, he's perhaps observing fram a road. Do you have a feeling of concrete, asphalt, 1 ight or dark, as described being what termed road Sug some sort of surface is basically what we are tal king about. I have both concrete and asphalt. Is it like an asphalt center with concrete border type thing. 115 UNCLASSIFEED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approvd For Release 2MWPAS9HED6-00788R001100080005-8 IBA: 184: Possibly so. I think t.he benches are, the benches not in a, is either a concrete or very solid type thing. Its a fixed type thing as opposed to a bench sitting on a wood Is there a color difference, say from where the bench is sitting, the surface the bench fs sitting an versus This is mre an open area, more area perhaps in the background. Beyond there there are other structures but it tends to be more open in where 083 was fn the beginning. He's moved, you're sorta I don Jt know where he is now. He may be from, in fact, he s probably now at a different perspective than he, than he was in the beginning. I think he fs at a different perspective. 0K. Perhaps at other end. Youlve really dust let it ail came out Its been fantasti c - dust a different - do you have any feeling of any kind of outside, you know, temoerature changes or breezes of scme sort. Youlve sorta tal ked about ooeness and greenery and No, its no there are, you know the tenperatures kinds cool but there are no, but there are' no, but again that's the outside enviroment is rather benign I think 083 is probably headed back to his car, leavfing the sight. Anything else you want to add or add to your drawing No. Any other impressions that you had that you didn't menticn initially or. No. Approve I guess wet 11 wait for 083 to come back. 116 UNCLASSIFIED or Release
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Apprgved For Release TEX 2 1B2: 1B2: S2: 1B2: S2: 182: S2: 1B2•. S2: 1B2: 1B2: Where do you Eke to sit, do you want to sit here or do you want +0 sit over there? It is now approximately 1300 xperiment of Prodect GRILL FLAME, with S2 as the su Ject, IB2 as the inbound experimenter, OBS and OB2 are the outbound experimenters. OBS and 0B2 will be at the target in approximately 30 minutes. It is now approximately 1330 hours and OBS and OBS and OBZ should be at the target. Why don it you start to tell me what you see. I don't think it is neces- sary to hold them probably sit r#ht here on the table. Maybe you haven '.t been looking or thinking about them so. No I haven t t. Why donit we take a minute far you to focus and relax. You know there is no roof. I don't really get much of an image of anything, which is not too surpri sing. Let me think about it for a minute. Sure. And see what happens. The only thing I did think about fi rst of and I guess this is probably worthy of noting is something deal ing with water. I see. Water within the line of sight but I am not sure what exactly how it looks but I am thinking about it. See if that stays with me or nat. In other words you see some body of water at their location and somewhere in the line af sight there is something dealing with water. Yes. That: s the first impression I got. Does it seem to be far away from you? In other words is it imediate or are they on the shore? It seems close. Kinda Eke they are standing on the shot•å. It seems like they are not far away. Yes quarter af a mile, to a hundred foot or so. that. 127 UNCLASSIFIED Now that could be a I dan It have any feel for Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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182: 1B2: 1B2: $2: tB2: 182: S2: S2: 1B2: $2: In other words you just think that they are close to where we're located at the moment. I don't get any feel ing of that, I dust feel as though they are looking at water. Ohl in other words the body of water is close to• us. Yes, that they are standing ciose to reiatively close. I see. Like somewhere like along the Spesutie Narrows or somewhere like that looking at water. I see. But t don it really know that I feel the narrows, I dust Feel like thats. That the water is close to the place. Yes. 0K. In other words, I don't get a feeling that they are in a room. Uh huh. I don't get a feeling that they're standing near buildings. Right. So they are outside huh. Uh huh. True, there's water water is close. Any man-made No, I'm still not that's what I was trying to get a feel for same- thing of the scenery. Huh. 0K. When I trqed to get this sorta feeling, I seem to get an idea of looking not like you would see a map drawing from the tap and my mental picture at that time I see things. like roadways, trees same the only thing I get of an impression is as a map type. that it is standing aowh ground level or you know the height af an dual . Approve 128 UNCLASSIFIED or Release
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Approved For-Release 1B2: S2: 1B2:• 1B2: S2: 182: $2: 182: S2: 132: S2: 1B2: 52: I.Ih huh. That's the orily impression ttve got so far. And no real details. I will think about it some more and see if I can come up with any- thing. Is a taking notes about it? I can't It seems like there's islands out in the water a ways. No. You know it is real Ty difficult when you do this to tell whether I tm trying to create something in my own mind. I have experi enced that. Yes. And that's the real problem I have. Ri ght. That I get the feel ing that you're looking out onto the water and there is a little island out there and I don't get a feel ing for anything around it at ail . In other words nothing around them other than the water and the island out in the water. Ch, lim sure that there has gotta be something around them cause i feel as though if I created or said it was such and so I would just be making it up or something. My expeHence and again don't let me subject you to my thoughts but I know the feeling but try not feeling is don It worry about it. to worry about it. Let you know if you feel you are making it up fine then you are making it up. You know. Kinda let your you know cause that is what you are trying to get your imagination. You know. In fact, Who knows what it could be. Don't let that inhibit you. Donit worry about that. put in as much detail as much as you want. To hell with it. Yea, that's exactly what I should do but I gotta stronger. It is a matter of degree of feel ing if I don't. The water I feel mre strong about, not that I guarantee that I am right or wrong. The other issues or the other things that I would guess are sorta of like low level secondary bits of infomation that don't really come through strong enough to me to mean anything. Therefore, I feel lid have to use some sort of mental ampl i fication process to enhance the image and then I feel as though it would divulge my conscientious mind and then I'd begin to wonder about 129 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For 132: S2: 1B2: S2: 1B2: iB2: 182: 1B2: 132: S2: 182: whether t 'm doing it by through the making up a picture or actually getting a message. Uh huh. There is a distinction between whether I created or whether What about - Is it possible for you to look down and see, perhaps get an aerfial view. Ali right let me try that. Taen I get a feeling that they are Whether I am right or wrong I don it somewhere out near Spesutie. know. Somewhere on that roadway out towards the narrows which is what I was thinking the first time around but I couldn't get a view of which direction. Uh huh. If try to make a map of it. 00 you want to. try a drawing of what you see? Yes, let me try to sketch it because that might be better. Let me move the table over close to you. I don't know directåans around here. Is this an aerial view? I keep thinking of that causeway Yes, I am gonna try to make a map. which looks something like that with a road across. it which comes in something like this. This is what I am thinking about I am going to put it down whether I am ght or wrong. And that road runs somewhere back in this direction. The share line goes somewhere I can't place them this is the only map type of along thru here. infomation I 'm thinking. - in other words Can you draw a picture of what you think they see your description of water close and the island in the water? Well, if I was using comonsense I id put them here. Cause that is about the only place you can go over. in that area and see anything but I donit feel like they are there, I feel like they are more back in here. Let's not worry about that, let's ga back to what you think about what they see. Letis not worry about where they are. 130 UNCLASSIFIED
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Approved For Releag•e 1B2: 32: 1B2: S2: 132: 1B2: S2: IBZ: 1B2: S2: 182: 52: 1B2: S2: let's make this one I 'rn not very good at drawing again way off I guess the shoreline is very law so this: would be the tree line on the apposite line. Ch, so you see a shore apposite. Thatls the impression I get. never really see anything in clear it is more like an Idea of this ar that. detail , 0K. And that's the idea, it is more like a feeling. Yes, And somewhere up in here there's this would be the edge of the water. And where are they located on your sketch? Where Standing here. This is essentially what your eye would see. is the island? Do you see it? I got a feel ing that the island No, danit get an island on this one. Off in this direction there was an isl and. is in that di recti on. But it is not in this field of view. dust relax for a few more minutes and see if we can you know try again you know try to go through the process all over again, and see what it leads. Think about them and what you think they see try to relax and get your mind off it. 0K. I sometimes note that you try to take Try something di fferent. Imagine them and your mind off it and it lacks see you know where does your mind lead you to go back. Change, no problem if you change. No, I don't get any feel ing of change. 0K. I think I need a little more information but not enough I couldn't real Ty draw much better than that of what I see except this shore- t mean not much of a 1 ine was probably rocky and fairly Tevel . slope downward. Do you see any noticeable trees or anything like that close to them? Not close. 131 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 96-00788R001100080005-8 1B2: S2: 1B2: S2: 1B2: 1B2: S2: 182: 1B2: 1B2•. S2: 1B2: S2: tB2: Any signs, houses? Houses along the shoreline I think, but you can't make them out very goad. Sa you see some buildings along the shorel ine. Along the shorel ine opposite you-. We felt to the left there are houses in this direction. My Yes. feeling is that they are here which I donat now but a while ago I Now t think they are here. There are some houses thought here. I am looking generally in that direction but here I know that. So what they see is depending on which around from •this di rection. way they actually look. Are there any fences or anything like that? No, I don't know whether it is a fence or a guard rail system. I bel ieve it is a guard rail system, that runs around post wide type. But I donlt really get a feeling of seeing that that much. gut I But can I say perceive an do know there is one out there. But of course really have no feel- image of seeing that, not much. ing whether or not that is a good guess. 00 you see water, do you see any boats? No, I really don't see anything. Any other people? 00 you see people with then? No, I am going to try to get an idea of what kind of vehicle they Colors are hard to get. I get the have. I don it know if I can. idea that it is yellowish. Maybe I should say light. Light color. Yes, Tight as opposed to dark. Do you feel that they are standing next to their car? Not real close but nearby, 20 to SO feet. And you say it is a light colored vehicle, and yellow popped inta your mind? Yes, that was the first thing. When processed that a 1 Ittle bit it is dust light. Can you smell anything? pprove 132 UNCLASSIFIED e ease
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Appröed For Release 2hbNdÆS8Æ996u00788R004100080005-8 182: 52: 1B2: S2: 182: S2: 182: No. The imagery that I do get when you do this sort of thing right or wrong it is sorta like still photography, there is no sense of being in the situation at least to me. Probably somebody were good at it or knew what they were doing they might get a feel ing but I don: t get that. Certainly not a sense of smell or things like breezes or wam hot or coTd. Obviousw, WOU1d say it is warm because I know they are not that. far away. But I don't have a feel for that. Then r 'd be saying dust what my logic wants. gut you don! t get any impression other than given that you feel they ire at Spesutie and yau know that's close you don it have any feelings for how close or what direction removing the fact that you see them at Spesutie. I've got that in my mind so automatdcally ltd say that's the direc- tion. Probably the wrong way to do this would be to try to pick out a locale but on the other hand if I say anything other than what comes to my mind feel that I have processed the data. Do you want to try something? Do you want to try again? Stop for a moment? Is our time up? don't know. Do we have a time? They are due back at 1415. I think 082 said spend 15 minutes at the site. They left at quarter If it is in fact a true experiment I shouldn't be doing any more. r would only see them traveling, or else t would dust be processing more infomation. ThatJs an interesting point. Is there any ather observations you'd Tike to make? Any aspect of the scene? Any di screte part of-the•• scene? Anything seem to pop out at you other than the things we have tal ked about this far that you 133 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 96-00788R001100080005-8 S2: 1B2: had on your mind? No. Letts concl ude this session. Time is approximately 1350. 134 pprove or elease 2 UNCLASSIFIED -RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved-For Release 2 96-00788R001100080005-8 TEAM 2 The time is now 1:27 PM This is an experiment of Project GRILL FLAME with 2 as the subject, IBl as the inbound experimenter and 0B2 and 083 as the outbound experimenters. In a few minutes, 082 and 0B3 be at their target and well 1 start It is now 1:30 PMO 082 and 033 should be at their target. then. S2 has been rel axing here for awhile. Are you, whenever you are ready S2. I 've been nnning throuah a sort OF enca IBl : IBl : S2: S2: IBl : S2: IBL: S2: Concentrating on the individual s? I tm seeing if i can do that and trying to get a sense of both Yes. direction and distance and that sort of thing so that it might give me an image of the surroundings too. The thing is too, you just try whatever comes to your mind, even though you're trying to concentrate on individuals, but actually, whatever image you' re viewing, what dust comes to your mind, it's possible that concentrating on the individuals Might hel p. Yes, I thought I would try that because maybe that by doing it that way I rrdght begin to get a sort of mental picture of the surround- ings as well as locations of where they would be. We're still here, 0B2. Thatls because I haven't gotten any real good imagery. Donit get anxious. Take it easy, no rush. I • keep getting the idea of water, but t Yes, try not to. don't know if it's If you get the idea of water, then that* s the Don't worry about it. idea. I Zi ike to sort things like thät a few times to see if I think of otner objects ar other types of things and that come back to that one particular thing aver and over. Based an that criteria, keep coming back to some picture of water of some sort. 137 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Apvroved ForRe1ease 00080005-8 IBl : 131 : S2: sz: IBl : I 'm tryfttg to get an idea or feel if itis some large amounts or small amounts or a small quantity. Weil, that's really not •important. Let's say you see water, do you see anything besides the water? No distinct imagery. It seems to be Just keep looking. Maybe you: re looking at it from one perspective. Maybe turn around, look from the back or the side. not trying to say from which side. Of another perspec±ve, turn 90 degrees or 180 degrees in either di rection. I get a sense of road near the water. 0K. Which is, it looks like itis a fairly decent size roadway, maybe a divided highway. 0K, keep going on that road, do you see anything? lim afraid, I get the image of one particular spot all the time. Don It worry about it. e spot that you re rocusing on? It's on Rt 40 along one of those areas where the What is bay, or the water, comes uo close to Rt 40. You can see the water from there. There's a little park area along there or something right along the edge of the roadway. 0K, any other distinct But, I don't really feel comfortable with that, so that's the problem. But don't really worry about that. Once you start worn'ing whether youlre comfortable or not, thatts what you see. Forget about the comfort now. What about, is there anything disti nguishing besides the water and so-called roadway that you, -see? Do you see any geometrical foms like buildings or towers or bridges? Nothing particuiar, but anything af that fom? 138 UNCLASSIFIED
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Approved Eor Release 2 9.6-00788R001100080005-8 It ts fairly level terrain. In that region there are some buil dings on the opposite side of the highway. And then across the water, itts fairly distantly, 1/4, 1/2 a mile, there's some shoreline, law shorel ine type, dust like you would see if you're standing along that 1 ittle parking area there. IBl : S2: 181:" IBl : S2: IBl : S2: IBl : I cae top, like How about snit t your rom some e evacian, like SO feet from the top. I don't know. I'll tell you, the problen is I don't like the imagery that I get off of this because I get a feeling. itis beina aenerated rather than • • bv Oon It worry acout wnat you're tee i Ing. It's possibly the problem and itis kinda a hard thing to sort out in your mind. You know ou'll. tune out the things which are probably right. No. I mean and as far as being comfortable ncernea, cone c worry aoouz that either. I mean comfortable in the sense that Comfortable in what you Ire seeing I'm very comfortable with what No, not comfortable in that sense. Itls uncomfortable It Is a very nice place to look at. I'm seeing. in the fact that I donlt feel as though that t can sincerely believe it's coming from where they are but rather something that somewhere else is being generated up by subconscious means or whatever. Ott, I see. Well, forget about that, don't about it. These are just doubts that are creeping in. R.i ght. Da yau still see the water? the roa•d? I guess the only •t'N0 things I keep thinking about right offhand. How about turning SO degrees again in some direction, to the left. 139 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For-Release 20 $-00788R001100080005-8 S2: S2: S2: IBl : IBl : S2: S2: 181 : P It's a low hill with woods on it in that direction on that partic- ular spot down there and that's the only thing I thought of first. 0K, so letls turn in the opposite direction, now. 90 degrees in the opposite Another hill with woods, no buildings. No buildings, Any trees, any shrubbery. Standard, fairly low wooded area, like 20-30' wooded area. Let Is look at the water again. 00 you see anything on there? Therels a, the image I have is something of a, ft's not a docking arrangement, it Is something like a, I guess it might be a small barge or a boat not too far off shore. 0K. Is there anything else? No, nothing else on the water. 0K, now tum around 180 degrees from what you are looking at right now. Tum around 180 degrees and look opposite on the water. Weil, in that case there's some buildings behind. You look across the road when you do that. The road is fairly open and it's dust divided highway and there's two ar three buildings lined up over there. Anything about those Sui •Idings? No, just nondescr#t type of buildings, small buildings. One of them is a repair shop of same sort. And this I know from going by there. There's a radiator shop there. Dongt worn' about it. s Now you're letting your conscious Yes I tm saying that's what bothers me about this whole thing because I get a feeling that this is not what r should be coming •up with. Let me talk about this dust for a moment because it might be more comfortable. 0K, we've got time. If I ever did come up with an area that they went to that I knew very weü and I got a real strong image of that, this doesnlt relate to 140
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Approved Förfe&ase 1 poQ80Q05-8 me that way, the dominant image I got was water with no real distinct thing, so then I feel I might have embellished it by saying Itis that particular where the water is -visible, but I know that place so if I ever did get one of that sort and - got real good at it, say, and could do that, it would seem rather strange because then I know what the surroundings look like, havina been there before and. then it wouid be a problem. Well IBl : S2: S2: S2: S2: a guy identi fiea so and so was ocacect at some mun pal playground or something of that sort and I think he gave in that case a very good description of i denti - what it was like cause he knew the terrain and it was a correct fi cation. Nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with it, except in order for that to hapoen, I should feel real happy or feel real convinced that that is the place they: re located, but I don it feel that way and I feei as though what Is happened here is that I tve gotten an image of them looking at water from some di stance and then some sort of memory bank search and sadd well gee, that Is the place it must be, and from there on I think There used to be a barge out there There used to be, I think, and I thdnk that's what I eve conjured ua In my own mind. That's what I mean when I say I don't really feel comfortable with that definition of that thing. I guess itis hard to do, when you sit down, you just erase your memory and that's the part which is very hard to do because you start doubting yourself. what it We're getting close to it. Do you feel, you got another minute or so, can you see anything else? Well, you never know. It could be correct. I don't have any feeling it is. Itis hard to get confidence I don't think you ill aet anv confidence. unless you get.æ Turn the recorder off. 141 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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f9NtLOÄSSFEB96.00788R001100080005-8 Approved For Release 2 S2: 134: 134 : S2: 1B4: S2: S2: S2: 1B4: S2: TEAM 2 Project GRILL FLAME with S2 as the subject, TB4 as the inbound experimenter and 083 as the outbound experimenter. 083 should be at the site in about 15 minutes. 0K, S2 itis 1:3Qs dust relax and let me know what comes to your mind. 0K. I danit really get any imagery yet. 00 you have any feel for what directdon 083 is in or how Far away he m#ht be From here? No, not now. 0K, dust But when I do get senses ft seems 1 ike do get some sort af flashes of something Piera' now and then, but— I haven't gat a feeling of anything. Itis just like knowing but Just take your time, don't worry about it. Yes, t Right dust That's Uh huh either did or I don't have to Wait until it perfectly fine. Itis does. So far nothing. better than trying to force something. The type feel, is Any No, dust the area of area that I get a feeling far, although an initial open and trees. for the terrain? that s an open area with trees. at the mom -34 143 UNCLASSIFIED No other of Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For ReleasU 1B4 : 134: IB4: S2: Uh huh. Any other feel ings about No, on this one no, nothing yet, other than dust open area and trees around in the area. I cant t tell. UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Pé6-00788ROOT1-00080005-8 Approved For.Release-200 1 184: 1B4: 1B4•. $2: IB4 : 184: S2: 1B4•. 134 : S2: 1B4: tfdtfACéWPIED Anything on distance yet? thoÜah t get a different feel about this thing It seems NO. In what way? it feels like maybe it: s hard to define that. I can't tell , well, It might be the weather itself cause the light level is obviously Uh huh. Uh huh, yes, definitely. Of course, I can't say if it's related to the weather or whether it's related to the state of relaxation ar the ability to receive messages or what. Uh huh. But you do get a feel ing af s even tan Is room, rel atively dark. Ji.1St• 11 e Dark, uh huh. And a feel ing af chilliness, not real cold, but chill inesse It! s damp. t' 1 1 have to No, I still get no imagery or any feel for structures. wait tn 083 starts casual ly noting structures. That's probably is one. when start getting a feel ing for a building, if there We have t Yes, with me. There's na doubt. 1B4: 145 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release S2: 184: 1B4: 1B4: S2: 134: 52: 1B4: S2: S2: S2: Tae conscious thing. Rd ght, Uh huh. 0K, well dust relax and see what you get. Yes, I '11 dust have to wait a little longer and see if t do get anything else. There is shrubbery around and it must be in some pattern, it looks as if though itis not a wild type of layout so it: s something structured some way. 0K, any colors? No, dust the greenery, and that ts greenery type shrubbery, I don tt get a feel for anything else. Uh huh. The layout, t am trying to get an idea of what it would look like from the top down. 0K. What the scenery appears to be. You know this feel ing of some sort of multiple structures fn the area, but canit get them laid out and sorted out. gut there are structures. Yes, more than one. 0K. From the top it looks like there is more than one. 0K, from the top do you see any height discrimination between the stnxctures. No, no, I don't get any of that sort of clearness, but or even a tendency of size or whether they! re clumped together cr not, I don It get that feel right now. Can you come down to the ground ievel and take a look at the structures. try. It seans to be a fairly busy' area, busy in some way or other, as opposed to somewhere where people don't go very often. pprove or 146 -IJNCIASSIFIED e ease
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Approved For ReleasdEbA18$:l EIEBPS6-00788R001100080005-8 184: S2: 1B4•. S2: 1B4: 184 : S2: 184: 134: 1B4: 134: S2: 1B4: S2: 0K. And it seems to be near a road 0K. So you see some sort of, traffic pattern. I get a A feel far that Yes. the feel ing of mation but not a feel Ing of whether or not traffic is going by. tJh huh, but some sort of motion feeling. Yes, like some place where people are moving around a lot. 00 you see any light or dark differentials, say light buildings, dark surface, or I got a feel ing there is a dominant building, but I canit quite at the from the ground level can't sort out w ere it sets with e aoe is. resoect to the Uh huh. In other words. Right, Right, 0K. -4 Which is the way most buildings are rectangular. appears to be more of a rectangular structure. fine. it We could put it in some sort of but I don't get a feel for the sur- face of it or its, the dominant one L think, don it think it is too high, maybe equivalent to two stories which would be 20 feet or so and size, can't tell. 0K. 147 ffNCLASS!FlEb Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2bHdLQS81k-B96-00788R001100080005-8 S2: 134: S2: 1B4: S2: 184: tB4: 1B4: S2: 184: 1B4: 1B4: I think it is kinda square. Are these other structures attached to it? No, everJthing I get a feel for is separate. Separate. A separate thing. 0K. Where is this building in eTation to the road? It seems to face it pretty much face it, and there's well guess the main raodway that get a feel for is a fairly frequently traveled type of roadway, don't know which one, but I have a feel for that. 0K. But then there's a, there! s off-road positions, or off-road capaSfi- ities for some type of traffic, and it's either donlt know whether it's, I think itis a combination of cars and people type like walkways to buff ding but don't get good detail an that. Where's the shrubbery in relation to the main structure? Weil, there's a lot of shrubbery. I get a feel for some of it that's up there near the building and around and then there's places like s been landscaped. 0K. In the field of view. And for wal kways or whatever, you have some feel of maybe concrete or asphalt or Wal kways. Wal k,qays, 0K. I cant t tell, I don't get a feel for that really. Can you go in back of the structure? It seemed more like concreted, but r; as opposed to gravel or dust dirt. 0K. Can you go in back of the structure? Anything back there? !Æe11, not dramatic, it seems like there Is more parking or places 148 -UNcLASSlFlED pprove
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Approved For RdAG12AW401A-RDP96-00788ROOi100080005-8 $2: 1B4 : 1B4 : S2: 184: S2: 1B4: 52: 184: S2: 1B4: 1B4: S2: for vehicles and a slight change, the ground elevation is not much dropped off but it sens to be a little different in height, I can't get a feel for how much. Some sort of a sloping affect in other words? It maybe seems , like it goes down when you go back to the Uh huh. back side, but it must be very, very minor or very low small amount of the slope. 0K, can you go around to one of the sides of the building? You don't get, I don tt get a good feel for view ori either Yes. side which either means there is something else along the sides or that the blocks off of this one or else dust not seeing, not sure. It seemed like from the sides there's this multiple building problem kinda gets in the way and you know how far away you are. I can't sort out You donlt see that one cleariy from the sides. that very well Any feeling yet on the surface of the buildftlg? it Is No, brick I think, that type of surface but I can't, it must, not dust single s not br*ck alone either, it seems to be in places something else that's lighter. than the brick. Yes, it might be wood siding or it might be something like windows with under the bottom part of the windows not brick or something like that and I really can't tell for sure. Is there a path or any kind of thing leading up to the front of this building or is it just sorta there? No, those paths or that walkway system go there. To the front of the building. I donat get a feei of the reguiar straight pattem, itis dust a maybe a flowing wal kway system or something like that. 00 you have a feel for anythdng inside of this main structure? No, not now. It seems to be a lot of glass in the building or what looks like glass and the side facing to then nearest to the road seans to have a good bit of glass. 149 UNCEASSlÉfED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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6-00788R001100080005-8 Appro#ed For Release 20 134: 184: S2: 52: 184: 184 : 52: 1B4: SZ: IB4 : $2: 0K. Any other details S2, anything else that comes to your mind? I didnlt get any feel for the interior other than feel that maybe the, s Wo stories I get a feel for that, and the second story line, where the glass is, you can it's almost like the second floor is visible, sorta like same bank fronts or things Tike that. 0K. Again, do you have any feel for direction or distance. Not today. Not any imediate ones. what would I get? '•fe;s--• Let's see, if I vote on that Pretty much in line to that side of where you are, whatever that I tm gonna have to figure out what direction wet re in, but 0K we know it's that way. That way, that wayish. I don't know where that ends up, where's that out in the middle of bay somewhere ar something. Now wait a minute, the bay: s that way. r don't know. Tne water ts that way. That way's toward 3S9. Well, t don it know. I don't think so. Now wait a minute, we're on the side of the building arenit we? That: s the front of this building. The frontis over there. We' 11 figure that out after,gards. Any other Thatts the only thing r got as opposed to •anything else. You zap around about 5 or 6 times and you seem to want to stop that way. 150 UNCEASSIFIED pprove or e ease
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Approved For CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8 1B4: S2: 184: S2: 1B4: S2: IB4: S2: 0K. And that's ail. I think 0B3 has left. Oh yes, I didnlt know what time ft is. I didnit remind you either. That's perfectly fine. I didnit get any good imagery of drawing but t got Probably has. a Feel far the fact that theret; more than one and that's about it. 0K, I'm gonna tum the machine off. 0K, I'll make a sketch. 151 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved-For RelUNGhÆSÆlBRDP%-00788R004100080006-8 IBL: IBl : IBl : S2: S2: IBl : S2: IBl : S2: IBl : TEAM 2 *This is experiment OT rooect(a L FLAM , with S2 as the subject, LB as the inbound experimenter, 0B2 and OBS as the outbound experimenters. 0B2 and OBS should be at the target in about 10 to 12 minutes.. i. is about 1:30 and 0B2 and OBS should be at the target. A1 right S2 Don't Let me know about it. dust relax and see what you can see. dust let it come to your I think you try to see anything. Don't try to see anything. are trying too hard. dust let it go. Don it Nobody forces you. No time. Something will dust show up. I know, donat let it occur to you, There think of any Edme limit. Don It look at the clock. is an the time in the world. I keep thinking of a building, but you don't see any image. never know whether you are doing that on your own. Oort' t worry, you think what you are seeing Donit worry about it. Donit tFJ' to analyze whether you and maybe that is what it is. If it comes never know or you do know ar whether you know something. dust say it. That is the only thing I think of is a building. 00 you see any kind of a shape? Don't try to destroy the building. Do you see any outl ine? no outl ine. I just get the impression of that - Do you get an impres- Alright, you get an impression OF a building. Sion of anything square or maybe it is elongated. It seems like it might be more than one story. I can't tell. No, You are tal king about stories — Donit try to A1 right, fine - think of a building. Try to think of a - is it a rectangular shape or a vertical shape? Vertdcai shape. Don't 0K - vertdcal shape. You are gettinå somewhere, keep going. force it but if that is what you feel don't try to think that it night be some frequency thing just keep going without thinking why you. Qragoing it. Any colors? No colors. 153 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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6200788R001100080005-8 Approved-For Release • IBl : IBl : S2: 52: $2: IBl : $2: S2: No colors. 0K. Anything around it besides that vertical shape? Can you see anything to the left or the right? I got a feel ing of trees but I don't get any feeling for how they are setting. 0K. No problem. In the line of sight of the obserter to the building. 0K. How about can yau shift your view to a different di rection? For instance, right now you have the trees in the line of sight, how about if you Took at it from a little bit elevated view, I think it might be a walkway of some sort. 0K - A1 right. It looks like a path you say right. Yau canit use the word looks like. 0K. Feel ing of a path through some trees toward a building. It doesn't have to be a path. You dust see something. 0K. Yes. Go ahead. And probably sort of a feel ing a straight way. But I don't know. 0K, you still don't see Oongt speculate. Right? That line perspective. any colors? No. Like are gray and relation It seens Well, is are? Is It seeTs there any contrasting not colors white? That walkway whatever it but is like dark and is does that have any in to the rest is it light is it dark? like it is concrete. it light? Is it different from whatever the surroundings the shade lighter or darker? like a shadow. pprove 00 you see anything to the right? Take a look to the ght. there anything to the right hand side of this that stands out? 154 UNCLASSIFIED elease 20
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Approved For Release 2ddæoASåÆÆ6bé-00788Rfffi 00080005-8 S2: S2: S2: S2: IBl : IBl : S2: To the left? I get an impression of to the Something taller than the building. eft. It is taiTer than whatéver don it say building. 0K. It is taller Ri ght? vertical Ty you see. It Is taller than whatever is at the end of that wal kway. I shouldnbt say building because I don it even know what it is. Yes, because if you say building you will get used ta bel ieving it It is something is a building which you donlt know what it is. Does this something vertftal have a look at it from the verti cal . top, does it have any length, does it have any width? The first reaction I got is that from the top it WOU1d not be squire it would be a round shape. 0K. Maybe it is an elipse or maybe it is round. Those are the two sorts of shapes I get in mind. Does ft have a length that thing when you look at it from the top? Does it continue and stop somewhere or is it? Is it? Lt seems like the base is wider than the top. Tnatis the impres- Sion I get. I can't tell anything else about it. 0K. A1 right. Letis not worry about it now. How about that path or whatever that you see, is it running into that thing or over that' thing or does it stop or beside it whatever that thing is the walkway or whatever else? Whatever was sæns to run towards• it cut I coul dnlt tell if it went straight or to the side or what. Alright. 0K. Let's try again. Now you still don't see any colors? 155 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved-For No colors. 0K. Anything around it besides that vertical shape? Can you see anything to the left or the right? Well, I got a feel ing of trees but I don't get any feel for how they are setting. 0K. No problem. In the line of sight of the observer to the building. 0K. How about can yau shift your view to a different di rection? For instance, right now you have the trees in the line of sight, how IBl : 32: IBl : S2: S2: about if you look at it fram a little bit elevated view. I think it might be a walkway of some sort, 0K - AI right. It looks like a path you say right. You can't use the word looks like. 0K. Feel ing of a path through some trees toward a building. 0K. It doesn't have to be a path. You dust see something. Yes. Go ahead. And probably sort of a feel ing a straight line perspective. way. But I don) t know. Don't speculate. 0K, you still donlt see any colors? Right? That No. Like are gray and reTation It sens is are? Is It seems there arty contrasting not colors but is like dark and white? That walkway whatever it is does that have any in to the rest is it light is it dark? like it is concrete. it light? Is it different from whatever the surroundings the shade lighter ar darker? like a shadow. 00 you see anything to the right? Take a Took to the right. there anything to the right hand side of this that stands out? 154 UNCLASSIFIED
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ÄPProved For Réléase Uh huh. Can you see anything? Why don't you dust relax and see if you can I don't know if you still see this vertical see anything eTse. . is it smooth or does thing or not but does it have whatever it is - IBl : $2: IBl : S2: IBl : IBl : S2: IBl : it have any kind of patterns? Some kind of patterns, I can't make out what they are. ght, it does have a pattern. 0K, that is good enough. again the side. Take a look at this thing from the side. like I donlt know what direction you are looking at. I don't know if this is side or not that looking at. Or whatever - so try to look at it From a different side. move around. Move around go degrees . Tne feel ing looks the same From that side. Now try tt seers Ai Mght. Is it wider or does it seem to have the same width or is it wider? I don't know, it seems like it might be circular. A1 ght. it sens Eke a circular object. Tapering. 0K. It is tapering, tapering where, on the sides? The base is wider than the top. 0K. May have something at the top, I can't tell . What about the pattern still smooth or do you see any pattern? No, it is not smooth. It is not smooth. 157 -UNCLASSIÉlFh Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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100080005-8 ÄpöFOved IBl : S2: S2: IBl : I don't Can you Nothing A1 ri ght. getti ng 1 eavi ng really get anything outside right now. - you're not getting anything right now. else on it. There's no use forcing anything else. We are almost to the time where these where 082 and 0B5 are going to be that area. I don it think you should force to get anything else if yau dust don't see it. I think we got a pretty decent descr#tion of something. That) s a description of something. I am not sure what it is. I think at the moment let's stop right now because OBS and 0B2 have left there. pprove 158 tnÆLASSlFIED e ease
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Approved For Reiöase IBl : S2: S2: IBl : S2: TEAM 2 It is now 1:20 PM, of Prodect GRILL FLAME with S2 as subdect, 131 as ühe inbound experimenter and 082 and 083 as the outbound experimenters. The outbound experimenters have picked up their envelope and they) re on their way to the target. It is now 1:30 PM and 082 and 0B3 should be at the target. 0K S2, you might as well relax and tell me what you see. Nothing. Reiax, something is going to come. Yes , t takes 2 I get a definaole image. How about if you concentrate an CB2 ana anc anac nappens. I don't get anything as far as ideas of or I should say 0K. imagery in regards to the two of them. I can get some sort of infomatfcn or something which seems as though I see then wai king around but I don't know how to relate that to any partdcular place. I really, like if I try to concentrate on them, I lose what little bit of imagery I get on the p.lace. 0K. Whether that's right or wrong, I don it know. 0K, if thatcs the way you feel , unfocus from them and try to focus I donit know if my interruptions disturb on the surroundings. your mental process or not. No. 0K, why don't you dust Are you blanking yourself out? What I get is sort of ideas is the way to start off. separate out wnether its conscious iy or..suoconsciousiy created ideas. —spend a few minutes sort of running an internal debate with myself as to whether or not these are correct. so 1 ask myself a series of questions of things like is what I am getting an inside scene or an outside scene? 141 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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•:Q0788RQQ1100080005-8 Approved For Release-20 IBl : IBl : 52: IBl : I wouldn't worry about that. If you're gettdng something, dust go ahead. If you spend time on this, you're dust rationalizing and analyzing. But' no it didnlt seen l.ike that. 0K, or analyzing, you see. But if you ask yourself guest*ons, you tre analyzing it. I seem to ask the question two or three or four times and say not sure where the answer comes CK when I get the answer back, from, I take the most majority vote. Does it make you feel comfortable? Yes. So go right ahead. I just get imagery, but very, very craae type imagery. Ali right. The imagery is fine. We can always focus in. So far, the only thing it ve got as imagery is some sort of walkway, but I canlt figure out what it is. Looks like a wal kway. Yes, but it seems like the first time got the image was like a regular sidewalk type of thing, but more than dust ane sidewalk. Not like someone standing on a nomai two to three foot width of concrete, more like its in the shade of concrete as opposed to asphalt and looking down a straight sidewalk it seemed as though there's, rather than a solid expanse of concrete, thereis concrete running in strips and I have one running straight ahead for awhile and then one coming in from an angle, like straight across from here. Keep going. Like that sort of image. That's fine, anything else? Not yet, I haven't the feel yet for what. is there other than that. So far, nothing else. 0K, try to expand your view. pprove 162 UNCLASSIFIED e ease
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Approved For ReleasU l.•dQQP96-00788R001100080005-8 S2: S2: IBl : S2: S2: S2: It's sort of to generate. in the sense me look over When you say boundari es ? a pattern, some sart af a pattern that I keep trying I can't quite place it. rt's not a regular pattern of. I dontt know, I canit tell what it is yet. Let it more and see if can get a better picture. these are concrete or whatever it is, do they have Is there anything outside of them? Is it a di fferent color or shape? If I stay dawn at the nomal five to six feet above ground elevation, it seems to be a broad view as opposed to a narrow view. Itis not a very confined space. So you donit see it as a well-defined with borders? No. How about expanding your view. Can you look at it from a little bit higher, from a different Let me try that. Or look beyond to the horfi zone I was trying to look down, if got above that particular piece of terrain and looked down. Then get a feel ing that there are buildings around if r look from above, but that the buildings are not that close. That doesn't seen right to me. Donit worn' if it seems right or not. Whatever impression you get, if you feel there are buildings, fine. Itis dust a feeling I get. Yes. 11m not sure that they're buildings, they ire something. 0K. Its got a geometrical sharp shape. Everything seems to be geometrical and we) I defined. Yes. 0K. Do you still see those str#s without borders? Concrete strips or strips of some sort with patterns in the Yes. ground pl aneo 0K, How about those shapes that you saw, which might be buildings, might be anything. How about •if you focus in on these things from ground level but from a distance away. 3 163 UNCLASSIFIFD Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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6-00788R001100080005-8 Approved-For Release 2 s. S2: IBl : S2: IBl : S2: $2: 0K, but It ve got to figure out how far away. Ch, about a few hundred feet. Letts try that. I get a feeling of one of the buildings higher than the ather or the others: Therels more than one I get a feeling when I move back and it's probably a sense of it being almost like a tower, like a tower which the other buildings are not. 00 you see any specific shapes being associated with them, other than them being square or rectangul ar? Yes. I keep thinking of a hexagon pattern, but when I got up to try to Took down on the ground, kept thinking that the hexagonal pattern is in the ground itself and not so much reproduced on the buildings, but the walkway things keep think\ng of seem to Se somewhat laid out in a pattern that either intersects like it foms a he.xagonal or forms a six-sided shape to them someway, I can't define it though. I can't get it clear in my mind. How about if you shift directions again at ground level and look again. 'Ahat do you see? Right now you've been looking at bufidings. Suppose you shift 90 degrees and look straight ahead. It seems to be, if you do that you get sort of a wall I guess. don't know where I'm going 90 degrees from. I don Jt know where I was going from. 0K. Suppose you shift 90 degrees to your Hght, like counterclockwise. Thatjs where I went, to my right. But then I said I don't know where I started from. Zero azimuth i snit very well defined but at least I went 90 degrees and got a picture of a looking at a wall on a side of a building. Yes, which was 1 ight brick or light but I can Jt get any texture off of it but lightness. What about, does it have any height? Yes, it was. The first thing I got was about between two to three stories, about 20-30 feet and about the height region. Not a pure pprove 164 CLASSIFIED e ease
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rectangle, but it seemed as if the left side of it as I view it
Sort of as if you were
was higher and it went sloping backwards.
looking at a concrete block building, something like that, which
had no windows in it.
What about vegetation?
ton It really come up with any.
No vegetation.
Nothing that seems to dominate.
Look from a
see. How about taking a look at the ground again.
00 you see grass, far
top view. Do you see any other shade.
nstance?
Yes, it looks like I see a I {tele grass around but it doesn't seem
Itis hard to sort that out.
rt looks like.
like grass ds domi nant.
It looks like itis an area where people primarily walk or if itis
an area where a pattern had been created in an otherdise smooth,
Tike concrete area, colored concrete area, something like that maybe.
building, can you take a look inside? Can you kind of get in and
see anything?
t can't get anything in the front so if r go back to the side view
I got an image the first time that seemed to be better than most
11m still
of the others. almost get the feel ing of some sort of.
Looking at the outside, though. I still haven tt gotten myself
If I try. The inside seems to be and I have to
mentally inside.
define it in very crude tens. It seems to be cluttered I guess is
the word I would say which means itis not open, not super high
ceilings, the ceil Ings seem to be higher than a house would be which
would put in on the order of 12 feet ceilings or that region but all
seeing is higher than.
What about the vol ume, you say it's cluttered.
Yes, Eke there are aisleways, counters and things like that but
I don't know
you aren't able to dust roam open thru the building.
I have no feeling if the cluttered aspect is due to it's
what it is.
like an auditoHum or a retail store. Looking at it from the side,
it almost laoked like a movie theater.
They are gettfilg ready to leave now. Da you want ta make any draw-
{ngs?
0K. t t 11 see what can do.
5
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AÖÖroved For Relöase 6-00788R001100080005-8 Whatever you .reme±er. —these things stick in your memory Yes 0.1 0K, so nowis as good a time as any. I'm going to shut the tape recorder off now. pprove 166 UNCLASSIFIED e ease
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ApprovedFor 1B2: 132: S2: 182: 1B2: 132: S2: 132: 182: S2: 1B2: $2: 1B2: TEAM 2 The time is Good afternoon. Tnis is an experiment associated with approximately 1300 hours. I am the inbound experimenter. Project GRILL FLAME. My name is 1B2. This afternoon my subdect is S2. The outbound experimenters are S2, the time is about 1:30, why don't we start and. OB2 and 083. Can I start thinking about? 0B2 and 083 and tell me what you see. 0K, whenever I see anything I will. Would you like another chair? dust wait until I get sometning that seems to oe a recurring type of thing. We got all kinds of time. It seems as though if I wait a while I get something that Yes. maybe filters where as if start right off. Try to get something. I '11 have to dust wait a minute - see what appears. I understand exactly what you mean. I donit really get any Huh. Well take your time. Therets certainly no hurry. No. I '11 wait. You know, the point is that we have to, we don't have to rush at all . Oust relax, the heck with it. Well, so far I don't get anything other than a feeling of sort of trees and shrubbery and maybe f1 owers or things like that. Huh. - I'm not gut no distinct anything and I don't even know if that's keep trying to come up sure that that's a real • image or not. with any sort of details of it and so far nothing. 169 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Apprpved For 1B2: 182: S2: 182: $2: 1B2: 1B2: 132: S2: 132: SZ: 1B2: Dontt be concerned with details; Try to get an overall impression of the position that they are in. I get an overall imoressdon that dust like an absence of landscape I don It that is you know like you would be seeing out in a distance. get any feel of that. Uh huh. All I get is a feeling of surrounding, almost surrounding trees. Like if you were in a woods or something that you didn't have a clear Yne of sight in any long distance of any. So far that has been the preval ent imoression. You say in a woods. Or in something like a area where you are surrounded by greenery in general . I see. I canit Can you are you a sense through dual or imagery Uh huh. gut not Do you? get anything as to what it would be, or what it is. kinda get an idea of what perspective you are looking in, with them, are looking away from them, or standing in front? Its just a sense of location of individuals. eel ing cne surroundings not as though I. was looking or any other eyes or aware of the presence of any other indivi- anything like that, but just a feel ing that the averall of what was there. enough to really find anything better than that now. Let me take another minute or two and maybe I will . I don't know. Relax. dust look at the surroundings, see if you see any shapes or have any impressions, any geometries. Seens like the trees that are there if t start trying to think about those someway or other that they are high as opposed to low - they don't have any you know like 60 feet. Uh huh. That type of heighth which I consider to be a pretty high tree. So, is this an open area surrounded by it? 170 -UNCLASSIFIED pprove e ease
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r don't get a feeling of openess at all.
I don't get a feel ing
No.
of wide open landscape at a 1 1 .
182:
$2:
132:
S2:
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1B2:
1B2:
S2:
132:
S2:
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S2:
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1B2:
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00 you get the feel ing of a
there among obåects like?
More like among obdects.
see.
No feeling of.
00 you see these objects as
I feel like they're a
are high.
I see. Taen they are among
safiail clear*ng or a small
sl ender, fat,
being tail ,
mixture, like in tems of
these things,
In among as opposed to standing way off looking at.
path or it could dust be a wooded area.
00 you see a path?
- I donat say that I am seeing a
don it get the
No.
get is a feel ing in among green stuff.
opening or is
short?
Eke they
trees ,
It could be a
path all I
And I haven't had a feel ing of color of anything before but this is
the only time that I had a feel ing of green.
I see.
And probably and I canit teil {f its truthfully whether its dust a
color green or green shrubbery or what.
Huh. What is green, the abdects green or?
Yes
The obdects are green.
Seems like the surrounding is basically green.
Oa you get any idea of the density or how close the things are
any feel ing for that?
Close as opposed to far but that's all.
No.
I meant in tems of for instance if they are among these statuesque
type things like trees for instance any idea of the spacing between
the trees or these tall obdects?
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-00788R001•10008'OOt5Z8 -Approved•For Release 20 S2: 1B2: $2: 1B2: 1B2: 132: 182: 182: 182: 182: 1B2: S2: 132: No, not really, I think that they are fairly close but the objects are fairly close but that not dust trees are present but lower shrub type or flowery type things maybe, Are in amongst these things also, Yes, they ire seen to be like in an area where you would walk through a section like that. All I am really dominantly getting is that I haven't sart of thing as opposed to buildings and structures. gotten anything like that where I have gotten imagery or feel ings, feel ings I think is the more appropriate word, but I haven't gotten the feel ing of structures. Uh huh. Huh. Like man-made structures. see. How about where are you situated, are you in amongst these obäects that you are tai king? Uh huh, Yes. Can you elevate yourself a little, walk around, displace your point of view at all? I donlt know. 1 811 try. Try to think of that, kind of move around if you can a little bit. I get a feeling of a road but I can't tell exactly where it is in some open areas in the vicinity. Is that right? I keep trying to think whether I get a• But no, again nothing, if I dust danit get anything. feeling or sense of structure, Not so much structures, but how about relationships of this. I can't get anything on the geometry or any specific layout of any I dust don% get anything like that. other surroundings is. I see. Other than know. What makes I think there is a road nearby, but where it is I don it you feel this? 172 UNCLASSIFIED pprove e ease 107 : CIA-R
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Approved For Release 100080005-8 132: 1B2: S2: 1B2: S2: 1B2•. S2: 1B2: S2: 1B2: S2: 182: S2: 1B2•. S2: 1B2: I donjt know, how do I know any of this stuff? You can't answer a I got a feel ing there is a road nearby which question I fke that. is probably true most any"here you go in this country. Nothing e] se. Maybe a 1 itale bit of intemittent sky views. Not full sky. You're looking up now? uh huh. Seems Tike a rather nebulous type of sensing like I have had what I thought were better imageries than this. This does not appear to be that well defined. tf we could define imagery in clear thoughts and clear visions, what you have or what you see, this environment appears to be cluttered to you or is this? No this envfrcnment appears too well cluttered is somewhat an appro- priate word. IJh huh. It appears to be surrounded by if I can make a very generai statement about it. Sure, Lth huh. Vegetation in some fom, whether it be trees, bushes, flowers, that sort, with high trees nearby, matter of fact probably in the middle of them. And cool as opposed to a hot feel ing. You feel cool. Well, that is pretty interesting. Like a shaded area would be. I see. Huh. That's very interesting. And not bright, di rect sunl ight with maybe intermittent light coming thru every now and then. Uh huh. 00 you get kinda of a, in this cluttered or spackled environ- ment you get this feel ing of trees or areas that are bright and then dark like a shaded area intermittent? Uh huh, Yes. I see. That is what I was sayfrtg. Go back, you made an interesting observation, was shaded. 173 UNCLASSIEIED it was cool like it Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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132: S2: 182: 1B2: S2: 1B2: 1B2: S2: :00788R001-100080005-8 Uh huh, Eke you were in a forested area. You also mentioned green. I see. Of course, I can't ten, I really cannot say absolutely if this is You know I got the feel - an environment which is. like a green house. ing I would get the same impression if it were a green house. Huh. And you are inside it, but I can't tall whether it is or is in an Cause, r am iust not getting outside area, in a wooded area or what. enough imagery to tie it down anymore than just these very, very general impressions. The general impressions would be as cool as opposed to hot, shaded as opposed to high on some hill with brignt sun outside. And generally no man made structures in the imediate, say within a 100 feet or so, or even in line of sight. How about the, again gaing back to the. I see. But you know, while I am on this business of man made structures bothers me because if it were a green house that would satisfy the same basic criteria as long as you were in certain portions OF it, If you had, if you really but I don it have enough imagery to say. stand in a green house you know you are not outdoors, but the type imagery I am getting I couldn't tell if I were there or out in the woods somewhere, which means in one case you would be in a man made I can't differenti ate. structure and in the other case you wouldn'• It kinda bothers me cause it seems like I should be able. When you mentioned something being tall how does that correspond with the. Well it doesn't, you know it really doesnlt relate. I see. I was :ust speaking of the. sense of feelings. I think it is getting around to a quarter of 2, why don't Huh. we turn on the lights and see if we can rapidly portray some of the. Some of the things that you see. Ch, yes, its Tike ten til. pprove 174 UNCLASSIFIED -00788R0011 ooo 005-8
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Approved FoÖRéiease -00788R001100080005-8 184: S2: 184: 1B4: 184: S2: 1B4: S2: 1B4: TEAM 2 This is an experfrnent of Project GRILL FLAME. The• subdect is S2, inbounder is 134, the out- couna experimenters are 0B3 and CBS. They should ie at their site 0K S2 it's 1:30, relax and dust tell me what in about 15 minutes. you see, any impressions you have. don't have any yet. Just take your •tüne. The first thing I get which is the only thing so far that I have gotten as a feel ing is the feeling of traffic. So wherever they are there is some sort of I started to say traffic but not sure Movement of something. that it's that, but whatever they're seeing it seems to have either ration around them or what they Ire looking at is moving or something of that nature, thatis the cniy feei ing It ve gotten so far. 0K, do you have any feeling of any kind of greenery you know as if being an outside with lot; of grass or Yes, I can't tell what it is but it seäms like there* s something there. Trying to sort it out is a problem. Well, dust don't worry about sorting it out, dust sort of say what comes to your mind. Yes, thatls what I tm trying to say, I get a feeling of both - I can't tell whether it's open terrain, I think open terrain. 0K. 00 you have any impression at all what direction they) re in? From where we are? Uh huh. Or how far away they are from us? From where we are, Direction I get a feeling for let's see the first time I felt No. something when I was facing quite the other way but now it would feel more like that general way, that way, whatever that is. I have no sense of direction but anyhow Whatever way that is. It would be about 4S degrees with respect to this room. 177 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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P96-00788ä001100080005-8 Approved For Rélease 184: S2: 1B4: IB4: 1B4 : S2: $2: 1B4: S2: 184: 184: Which would put you somewhere off in that general vicinity, but no If I trv to relate it, it: seems as though real feel of distance. fai is the only way I can get. 0K. 0K, that's fine. And I get the + tailed imagery, something that tney see tnaz moves. around then, itis not a de- but it ts sort of a sense af So, •it's not necessarily people motion or them moving that yout re getting, itis something that they are looking, some sort of object that's moving. I feel like traffic but you know if . Well, a series of objects. try to pin anything down like that it would be too difficult. No, that: s fine, that* s fine. And there may, there has to be something eise there because I got a feel ing of also open and trees and that sort of thing. 0K, so you do see some trees. Uh huh, openess with trees in the vicinity at least. Are they, 0K. I'm trying to get a feeling of buildings and I don't grasp that now. Tnatls fine, it's conceivable there are no buildings. Yes, itis conceivable. 00 you have any color feel ings? Well, the only calor you get as a feeling is itls sort of a light/ dark imagery, it seems light, which to me would feel like it's out- side, an open type of area as opposed to underneath or dark, that sort of thing. And, again the dominant feel ing is that something Itis not that they* re watching moves, within their line of sight. r don't get that feel ing, necessarily the object they* re watching. but there is some motion. Can you shift your perspective a little 'bit. Can you go •aerially and look down and see if you can see a larger perspective? UNCLINSSIFIED r e ease
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Approved 20 6-00788R001100080005-8 but I shall try it and see- wnat nappens. 1B4: S2: S2: 134: S2: 184: S2: tB4: S2: 1B4: $2: 1B4: S2: S2: It's up to you, ar shift 90 degrees an the ground* one way or another. I have the image of a cdncreta building of some sort it seemed 1 arge but I canit tell anything else right now. But you see it as a concrete building. ThatJs what I thought. Can you see any details on the building? It comes in sort of spurts when I do get some feel ings, so that was the only thing I got as part of it. No sense of even size, al- though in a sort of a recollection, it would seem like it was fairly large. Any sense of shape to it, or windows, any identifiers? No, it seems as though the building almost comes across like shaped like a quonset, which really seems strange. No, there's lots of things like that. Is the building dark or light? Light, thatls why I thought it was made out of concrete or cement or cement blocks, something of that sort. Or like a light brdck possibly? Yes, can't get the texture of the exterior, but it seemed to be not a rectangular building. Like a quonset hut? I didn't get the feel ing Yes, but I tm not sure that's what it is. of rectangular. Not a squareness. Yes, not like you would have a 3-dimensional block, or a cube, or a square or •rectangle. 00 you have a feel for the height? No, not very good. I get a feel ft would be relatively low as It's a rel atively lower building. opposed to a real vertical building. It feels as though when you get things that are incoming infomatfon UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved-For Release 2MßPASfE&00788R001.100080005-8 SZ: 1B4: 134: $2: 184: $2: 1B4: 1B4 : S2: 1B4: they do come in definite spurts and seme moments sometimes you get it and you're trying to recall what the image was and that tends to get to be difficult. r suppose that's everybody's problem. Right. Youire not sure what's coming in and what you: re doing to if it has come in. Weil, you get the feel ing, a clear feeling every once in a while, that it comes there but the duration of the signal is very short, so you don't process it very much and then you try to process after the fact, so the signal's gone, therels no more ciear feel ing ta it and then after that r 'm trying to recall what did get and it gets to be quite indistinct at times. 0K, can you move around. I don't know if you're in front af this building or on the side, but say go 180 degrees around from the position you are now and see if you can see anything back there. 0K. What I first felt was sort of looking at the side af a quonset but at sort of on a level basis. If I go to the other side, it's sort of like I'm looking up now, so that means the ground must have gone down. 0K, very good. Is this a grassy area or a paved surface of same sort? Do you have any feel for that? Seems grassy but there is some amount af surface area that's noz grass or it may be dirt. Like a rough area? Yes, that sort of texture. Is there anything around this structure? I don tt get a feeling of, you mean like shrubbery or things of that sort? Or like obdects .af any significance. Anything that comes into your field of view. This business of detecting motion seems to be tied into it and t canit tell whether it's something that goes in and out of the build- ing or something that goes by within their field of view. 00 you have a feel for what is inside this structure? No, it was dust the feeling of sane sort of. I really can't tell if itts broken into or what it looks like inside from the imagery t I get a feeling it's designed in such a way that vehicles get. could be driven into it. UNÖ[OASSIFIED pprove
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Appxoyed Eor Release 100080005-8 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 134: $2: 1B4: S2: 134: You see an aperture of some sort? I get a feel ing that it has a door size large enough such that you could move automobiles or larger vehicles in and out of it. Does it have any windows or any other type openings at all? I get a feeiing of some sort af openings but I can't get sharp deas. What if you 700k at it from above, what kind of image do you get? Not much. Still nothing really distinct surrounding it either? No, I don it really get a feeling of a layout of that with respect to approach roadways or something like that. But you do still do feel the motion somewhere. I feel as though it were more vehicle motion. They come either right up to the building in this increment of time at least they do that and if I try to stay with the top view, I do get a feel ing of maybe a concrete apron at one end or an apron of some sort. But to get into it, you ire going to. have to have something of that sort, dust on one end though. 00 you see anything surrounding it? Not clearly. I can It get a feeling af where it is in respect to us either. I still think it's' that direction. That di rectian. I 've tried ta sort that out again and see if it was here or not and I don: t get the feeling there, The signals you get are very minimal at best. Do you have any feel for 083 or 086? Apart from the grass and the greenery type and light and dark, but no other colors or that type 'imagery comes to you? No, I don't get that in any detail. Can you scan a larger area around the structure? 181 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 6-00788R001100080005-8 T, S2: 134: 1B4: S2: 184: 134: S2: 1B4•. Thatls what I was trying to do from the top, but I couldn't get a feel for it. That's what was bothering me a few moments ago. 1 tried to get over the top and say now what does this thing look Idke with respect to, if yau want to call it the front, wherever I got a feel for this front, this larger door entrance and then how you would get to that from wherever you would get into it and I don: t get any of that right now. didngt then either and still don't. 0K, why don't you just relax and see if anything else comes to you. They're going to Se leaving in about a minute, but don it worry about the time. No, I don't really get anything beyond what I've already descri bed. I feel as though it must be farther away from a road, like a standard highway, then I would nomally associate with a building, like along the edge. It wouldn't be right up along the mad? Mo, not right along. I canit say whether you drive 1/4 mile or whatever it is from a nomal roadway, but that Is all. Would you like to put your images dawn on a piece of paper? I think I got an idea of .drawing that building in some very crude fashion but not in too much of where it sets. 0K, I think they have departed the area. Probably. 11m going to flip this off and let you do your drawing. Approve UNCLÅSSIFIED or Release
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184: IB4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4•. 100080005-8 TEAM T, at 1:00. This is a Session of Project It is the GRILL FLAME with S 1 as the subject, IB4 as the inbound experimenter OBII should be at the target and OBII as the outbouhd experimenter. at about 1:30 and wet 11 start then. The time is now 1:30 and OBII So S 1, approach the site as OBII is should be at the target site. approaching the site now and tell me what you see. I get the impression of OBII moving at a fairly swift pace to the site and Is this on foot? Yes. And a, the impression that she's on a sidewalk, that she approached I get the feel ing that whatever it is is the site from a sidewalk. right at the street, that itis a, I get the impression it's a build- ing right at the sidewalk. Is OBII approaching this building or this structure? I don't have any feeling for her now, she: s, I have more of a feel- ing of the structure itself than OBII 0K, Sl, go closer to the structure and tell me what you see. Something like a I get the impression of a brick front structure. I feel , you get the impression of a downtown area, store or office. something that's, like buildings are close together, everything is close together. Rather than an open type area. Rather than an open type. 0K, fine. On this side of the structure that we're looking at, are there any distinctive features, concentrating on whatever side it is that we fi rst approached? I get the feeling of one large window. At what level is this window? 193 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000/tncuqssE0788R001100080005-8 Sib. 184: 1B4: 1B4: Sl: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: At the ground level . Ground level . At the, well the window is not quite at the ground level but one First floor level? One sees a very large window at the first floor level and I think therels just one window and one door, so it Is What type of door? Not entirely glass. 0K. Maybe partially white and partially glass. Very good. What's the height perspective on this structure? I get the feeling that it! s a single story you know, but relatively higher building. I get the, I get the feeling that an alley or passage way runs down one side of it, maybe on the side of the door and I get the feeling that it may be joined with another building on one side but on the other side one could walk down 0K, Sl, walk down the other side and tell me what you see. I think that side is completely closed, that itis just a wall all the way down. Maybe cinder block, itis kinda like a building with a cinder block front or a brick front and like cinder block all the way down the side, I get the impression of a fairly long distance down the side. 0K, very good. What is the color differential between this side and the front, or not necessarily the front, but the first side that we approached, lighter, darker? Much lighter, Much lighter. Whereas the front might be something like on the red brick type thing, this is a lighter, either white or gray or tan, much lighter. So, it was a red brick type thing that we saw on that first site. 194 UNCLASSIFIED pprove
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Approved For P96-00788R001100080005-8 184: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: Yes. 0K, walk around to the next side of this structure, which should be the diametrically opposite side from the first side we looked at and tell me whatls back there. I get the feeling that things open up back there, that itis kinda like, I (m not sure whether it's a service area or maybe even a parking lot or it, but it doesntt seen all that organized back there, but that it opens up. What perceptions are you that give you that not quite organized feel ing? Things don't seem to be very squared off in the back, I guess and my first, with an open area one might think like there's parking or something back there but it may be, it doesn't seen quite that structured, formal as a parking. What type of surface is back there? I think it's, I think it's a hard surface back there. 0K. Are there any objects back there that come to mind, anything that stands out? I get the, I get the impression that, something back there, lim not sure of. That's not associated with the, thatis not out of the same material as the building, it seems, I don't know what. Is this something, is it light, dark, smooth, rough, what kind of size to it? I get the feeling that it's something more temporary than the structure and I don't know whether that ts boxes or something back there or, I got, there's dust something else back there I just can't A1 right. I can't define what it is. 0k, Sl, thatcs fine. What, tell me what this particular side of the building, of the structure is like. Kinda like the other side, I, don't know, 195 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release EA85fiB0788R001100080005-8 IB4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 51 : 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: Like the last side we chatted about. Yes, I kinda get the feel ing . it's. something like this with a large window and and it goes back here and here is, maybe there's another building over here, I don't know. A1 right. And it goes back here and it opens up like the back side of a building. And, like I say, I don't know whether that's just material stored out in the back, it just seems Something that's not quite neat. Kinda disorganized. Yes, just some kind of disorganized. Tell me about the roof of this building, of this structure. Well, I think itis flat, it appears to be flat from the front one does not see, when one is at ground level one doesntt see a sloping roof. 0K. I tend to think it's a flat roof, but 0K, Sl. It could be slightly sloping on the back. 0K, Sl, go back to the first side that we looked at and move up to the door that you said was there, and turn around and tell me what you see. I think one, at that point the impression is it's along a fairly busy street and that maybe therets parking there, next to the street, that there may even be parking meters along there, it looks like cars are parked along the street. 0K. And the impression is fairly busy, ltd say that it's a fairly, I get really the impression that this is in, kinda of a downtown place, you know. 0K, very good. Sl, walk across the street or place, 0K, we Ive sorta said street. Walk across the street and look at the structure we've been describing and tell me what your overall, general perspective is, what you see, if there's any features we haven* t discussed. UNCLAGIFIED pprove
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Approved For I BIKRDP96-00788R001100080005-8 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4•. 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: Sie. 1B4: I get the feeling that this side is other buildings. 0K, very good. And this side is open, now there may be something, another building or something sitting back here, but this is open on this side. 0K. 0K, the street runs along here. A1 ri ght. And I get the feeling that this door is recessed somewhat. 0K, very good. Set back. You mentioned before that there was a sidewaik of some sort, you saw something around this building. Is that still accurate? That's a sidewalk, yes, uh huh. A1 right, very good. I'm not sure about that now, I tm not sure about this sddewalk along the long side now. I tm not sure one can you know like drive a car back along there or something like that, I guess more of the feeling that this side is open and that there may be some other thing there. A1 right. Now we're still across the street looking back at this structure, is there anything that is distinctive in front of this doongay or any such thing, do you see any colors, any details about that particular side and what's in front of that side? I get the feeling that in the window, maybe it has a shelf behind it which is like there is something displayed there. I don't have really much of a feeling of color except for the front of the building. 0K. Now you say that there is another structure adjacent on that one side, correct? How does its surface compare with this first structure that we have talked about? I think it's different; I think itis Li ghter, darker? 197 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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1B4:
1B4:
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184:
1B4:
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Sie.
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184:
1B4:
1B4•.
I think it's a lighter one and it looks Tike a less modern, like a
less modern building.
0K, very fine.
Maybe a different roof line.
Uh huh.
But I don't have that very clearly yet.
0K.
It just seems like a, seems like a different building, different
style entirely.
0K, Sl, what is OBII doing right now?
I think she's figuring out whether she's supposed to leave or not.
That's quite possible, that's quite possible, considering the time.
But I think she went inside.
A1 ri ght.
I think she went inside.
Do the same thing.
I think the place has items displayed in aisles the length of the
thing, you know, like a few aisles.
0K.
And itis like the shelves, not you know the more substantial aisle
type shelves where things are stacked up on both sides and I think
OBII went inside and looked around on those things and maybe picked
up some things.
0K, very good, very good.
She spent some time inside.
0K. I think OBII has probably or is in the middle of leaving.
direction has she been in?
Like over that way.
What
0K.
pprove
How far?
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Approved For IB4: 1B4: 1B4: 184: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 1B4: IB4: Today is the It's five mfrutes after one. This is should be a session of Project GRILL FLAME with S 1, iB4 and 089. We'll start then. at his target site in about 25 minutes. 0K, Sl , 0B9 should be at his target. So, relax, keep your eyes open and let me know what comes to you. Do you have any feel for how far away he is? No Anything at all Sl? No, not yet 0K, take your time. Why don! t you try to direct me a little bit? A1 right. See what happens. Do you have any feel for 089 at all? I sorta, sorta feel like he is just wal king around. 0K, he's wal king around, right? A1 right, is he in, is he outside, is it an open area, a confined area? I think its probably, relatively open where he is. 0K, what leads you to say that? I get the feeling that where he is located is a confined site, maybe one building, but around it is relatively open. 0K, So there is a structure of some sort? Yea. 0K. Can you get cl oser to the structure and tell me a little bit about that? 201 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 200ffCL•.R$MB00788R001100080005-8 3 184: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: I get the impression that its kinda like its surrounded partly by parking, not this, but maybe a square structure. A1 right. Like that, somewhere but at least like maybe parking on a couple sides. I got A1 right, do you have any feel for, say on this structure, is it light or dark, how does it contrast to the area that you are terming parking but some sort of surfaced or non-green type area. Is the building a large building? Not too large, I think it may be relatively squarish, the building I get, I get the impression that maybe brick, maybe a brick type, maybe a brick type building, Ah. And it either has a sidewalk around it or something that sets off the foundation, you know. 0K, is there a front to the building? Look around and see if you can find a front to the building and then see what you can tell me about the front. Walk around the building. Let me see if I can orient myself. You might say the front might have some, has a, either, the front has some sort a, sort of overhangs, you know. Over that sidewalk part, that open part there. 0K. And, I am getting the impression that there is something up near the front door of that thing, like a, maybe something like an ice machine, a soft drink machine, or something right out by the front, you know, by the entrance. What kind of impression are you getting that is telling you its that? I get the impression that there's something out by the front like that, something that, Ah, maybe some sort of storage thing, or something where people could get something there, like it might be some sort of servicing. pprove 202 UNCLASSIFIED or e ease
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Approved For 100080005-8 184: 184: Sie. IB4: IB4: 184: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 0K. Any special, what's it made of? Are you getting the feel ing of a type of material? Of what? You know, like a, what we are talking, what you are teming 'ice Is it-• machine or soda machine, something that's sitting out there. a boxlike thing? Like a metallic cabinet, you know. 0K. Any shape to it? Yea, rectangular, boxy type, like, maybe the size of a refrigerator or something like that. 0K, why don't we step back a little, move yourself back about a hundred foot from the front, and take an overall look at this building. Is it uniform height? Are there variations in height to it? Can you tell me anything else about any of the details of the building, any colors? I kinda think from the front, say overhanging, maybe there's some posts along the front. 0K. You know. 0K. Under the thing that overhangs. That's the overhang. Yea, that's' the overhang. There's something, some posts, maybe that's too many posts but. That's alright. Where's the Uttle box? Somewhere over here. 0K. I think it has, maybe has double, maybe it has double entrance doors Its got a, like a, maybe it has glass doors. or something. Uh, huh! 203 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 1B4: 184: Something entering in the front. 0K. What is the height perspective on the building as you are looking back at it? You know we have moved about a hundred foot or so in front of the building. I think its probably a, probably a one story building. I get the impression, ah,- ah, rodfi kinda, I can't, I donlt have much of an impression of the roof but maybe partially. I don It really, I don't think its a totally flat roof, or anything. It may-be a peaked roof. A peaked roof? 0K. Yea, something that slopes down toward the front. Whether the whole roof is like that, I don! t know. Alright, fine. This will be the front down here. A1 right. Any color feelings? I get• the, my first impression, earl ier, was something like a squarish brick structure and you know, not real reddish but part, you know, sort of reddish and then, ah, then, after that, my impression was sorta of lighter materials, I don: t know whether that was Was that when we were looking at the front? Yea, and the ughter materials, I am not sure that was the, the ah, maybe that was part of the roof, the trim and stuff like that, you know. So, I don't get as strong a feeling around the front of the brickish stuff. as I had. 0K, why dons t you do something for me. Go up to the entrance of the building, and turn around a hundred and eighty degrees? And let me know what you see. Ah', I get the. not, maybe therds parking business here, and maybe its not- too far from a road here. Ah, there's something else across the road from it. Ah, another structure. I think. Maybe not directly •across. 204 -UNCLASSIFIED pprove
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Approved For Release "GIÆBÅ1096-00788R001100080005-8 IB4: IB4: 1B4:• 1B4: IB4: IB4: 1B4: 1B4: Sie. IB4: 184: Somewhere in the horizon, in the area, over there, Yeah, maybe. 0K, in the field of view, in your field of view? 0K. Yeah. Sl, do you have any feel irig now how far 0B9 might be from us? I really dontt. I don tt think hets real close. 0K, that: s fine. really onit have much of a feel for him. 0K, why dontt you go in back of the building and look out. Can you tell me what: s in the general background out there? I get the feeling therets one of those big trash containers heäind there. One of those dempsy dumpsters or whatever they! re called. How about a little farther out the background area? I donat see anything directly out there. think itis kind of open back there. Good. 0K. Ilm not too sure about that back part too much. Maybe the hack part has a cinder block wall or something like that. It(s different than the front or the side, I think. I tm pretty sure 089 has left by now. Is there anything else you td like to add or take a look around and find anything you haventt mentioned or would like to expand on? There may be a road going along this way too, along this side. Anything el se? No. 0K. Very good. I tm going to turn the machine off. 205 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 100080005- 1B4: IB4: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: C Today's the—rt's about 6 minutes after 1 :OO. This is a session of Project GRILL FLAME with S2 as the subject, IB4 as the inbound experimenter and OBIO as the outbound experimenter. OBIO should be at the target in about 23-24 minutes and wet 11 start then. 0K, S2, itjs 1:30 and OBIO should be approaching the target site, so what I'd like you to do is approach the target site with OBIO and tell me what you see. 0K. I don't think Ilm getting any infomation yet. Take your time. It's gonna be a little slow I think. Sure. Take your time and if I don't hear from you in about a minute or so, I will ask you some other things. 0K. I have no feel for the target at all yetß* Can you tell me what direction OBIO is in? No, no distinct and outstanding impressions other than this di rection seems to be the feeling. 0K, now that's fine, thatis fine. I don't feel too swift about it but that's what I think. How about distance? A, it feels close, seems close, I'd say 3-4 miles possibly radially. 0K, that: s great, that's fine. A1 right, do you have, are you getting any feel for the area now? Not very much, it seems, it seems to be quite different— 0K. Tell me If it's an open or a confined area. It open but I 'm having trouble with that. It seens to feel open as a countryside setting of some sort. I don't get the feel of cluttered or closeness. Uh huh. 207 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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tfNtffSSlf-l% Approved For Release 2 96-00788R001100080005-8 184: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 1B4: 184: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: S2: 1B4: Right now that's about the only differentiation I Ive been able to make so far, 0K, fine. You said a country type setting. Yes, which •I really mean not—to be cluttered with regular fomed objects I guess. Now I'm trying to get something on whether or not the surroundings do haye, or what is there, as opposed to dust the openness. Alright, take a couple of minutes or so and relax. Nell I get a feeling for some buildings spaced like apart. 0K, you see structures. Something spaced apart. 0K. Fhre. than one. Yes, more than one but not closely packed or close together. 0K. Still the feeling of open area with a good bit of green or surrounding green colors or that feel of outside surroundings with, I ive gotten some glimpse of a road which is, I keep getting the $1 impse of a curving type of road as opposed to straight and regular shapes. 0K, that's great. Or something in, it may not even be road. But something curved Something in the ground plane I guess is where it feels as though it is. Which I interpreted as a roadway or as a pathway, one or the other. But some sort of a curved pattern, surface pattern. Tell me a little bit more about these structures. The, I think the one that he vould be, thereis. more than one in the field of view, that I seem to have a stronger feel for that. Very good, 0K. Just the size of the, I cant t tell if it's the central one or not, but one of them stands out. pprove 208 UNCLASSIFIED or e ease
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Approved For Release 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4•. S2: 1B4: 1B4: LB4: S2: 1B4: Alright, concentrate on that one. That's what I'm trying to do, get some infomation for that particul ar structure. Approach it, move up to one facet, one side of it. Yes, 0K, I try to place it in tems as you go towards does it get much, how high does it appear to be or how large an object and it I get the feel for something quite large. seems to be quite large. Is quite large in height? Everyway. Every? Every, well probably high, but dust generally a bigness. Large, 0K. Which means it seems this way and this way quite a bit. Alright. Let's concentrate on one side of it, whichever side you're approaching and tell me what* s there. a surface, color, outstanding features, describe this side to me. The side that I get a feel for doesn't appear, doesn't have a feeling of flatness, that is, not all in one plane and it, there's things that come forth from the structure some way in that there are rather than just flat staged cubical shapes there seems to be some roundness to it somewhere and looking from the view that I get a feel for to the right side of that. We've moved a side then? No, I tm staying, You're staying on this side, 0K. The way that I came at it first. Fantastic, 0K. And it seems as though to the right of that viewpoint which appears, the direction that I have a feel for is the way you would nomally approach the building. Fantastic. 209 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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¯ 00788 R Approved For Release 1B4: 1B4: 1B4•. 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 184: 1B4•. With respect to people who normally come here and Itas size and feel indicates that a lot of people do come and go. There is some sort of area there in front, I 'm not sure what that is, that's where people move from like vehicles to the building and I get a feel that this Fight side goes off in a curve or has roundness to it some way. Go around it. 0K. Let's see, if I go to the right side. Uh huh. I get a feel ing for something that goes, a vertical wall that curves around to hitting another sort of like a projected round in on the building that goes back on that side and hits into the wall to what would be now from moving 90 degrees back to the wall that you'd see from there with this roundness sticking out and then goes straight back for some distance and then if I move on around. Uh huh. It seems to have some stacks or something on top of it or something from that side that you notice more, itis, I'm not sure, itis hard to, you know it's hard to keep yourself in one plane when you do that, but it feels as though. You Ire not going to stay there very long. Yes, just moving around that way as though the surface was lower or something seems to have a fall away makes, maybe the building is dust higher on that side, I 'm not sure. 0K. But it seems that way and then on around again that Uh huh. If I complete a circle, probably get a .feeling of a circle, the other side seems to be just a straight long, straight dust plain. Yes, 0K, tell me about the texture, color feel ings of the walls of this structure. Are there differences between the various different places we've been? Yes, I seern to, I guess not stone but cement like, a feel for finished cement exterior with brick mixed and like cement edging and bricks near the center with top and lower edges with maybe even, that's even getting brick framed by a cement type of structure. Fantasti c. Approve 210 UNCLASSIFIED e ease
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SffÅhbp96-00788R001100080005-8
Approved For Release
IB4:
134:
184:
1B4•.
1B4•.
IB4:
S2:
IB4:
I get a feel for that, I don't know whether that's good.
That's great. Alright S2, go up a hundred feet and tell me what
you see. Look down on the structure.
I still get a feel for that same general shape of it, fairly
Well,
large, the roof is a different levels, you get a feel that the top
is not all one height, which is the same feeling I got from the back
side.
Good.
I have a feel for flatness on top so whatever the different heights
are, they appear to be up and down in flat stages.
Uh huh, 0K. Look around.
It doesn't seem to be
Yes, I was, that's what I was trying to get.
right, like very, very, like right up against a roadway, it doesn't
and it seems as though therels something, there is a roadway to the
side where I first came and therets openness sort of all the way
around the building actually with respect to the raodways. The road-
way that I have a feel for, the one ts I initially felt were curving
not straight, there's I cant t get a handle on that roadway system.
That's fine, thatns 0K.
But you get a feel for one and no sense, I'm trying to get the feel
if there's any sense of a feel of water from above or bodies of water,
I get no feel for that.
Greenery?
Yes, greenery, or that type, vegetation but openness with it mainly
to the rear area seems to be more of the open
0K. Why don't we come back down and letts go back to the side that
you said would be the approach side that whoever uses this would
approach from this side.
0K.
Move up to there and turn around and tell me whatas in front here.
You're at the structure looking out from the structure.
The first thing I got was a feeling of a, the closest thing felt like
a, soæ sort of vertical object, and it could have been a tall struc-
ture, tall, thin structure of some sort, it could be a flag pole, or
something, dust a feel of something like that. A feel of
What kind of material texture to {t?
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Approved For Release 1B4: IB4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: S2: Light color, that's all, dust a feeling that itis a light color. 0K. And thin, it seems, a type object and away further some impression of something round, like there Rs no roadway very close that I get a feel for, it's like walks or something another, round flower planting area or something like that and then beyond that a roadway with some buildings I think beyond on the other side of that roadway, a 1 though, there are structures or something. Some structures. Beyond that with nothing, nothing of real earth shaking attention there, I don't get a feel for odd structures. 0K. I want you to move to the roadway and turn around and look back at the structure. I get a feel of a few hundred feet of width to it, still the same feel for a concrete/ brick mixture. And near the center of it I have a feeling of a good bit of gl ass area. Uh huh. It looks like even a feel of overhead wTakways, that maybe, I can't quite tell whether that building, itis up and dovm portion, you know, it's higher and lower. Uh huh. It gives me the effect or the feel of something like you would have a projecting area that you would go under these vertical columns, and they seem to be towards the center of the building from that roadway. Tremendous, that's great. I didn't get much of a feel for those when I was up closer to it but I get a feel for it now. Well. we might not have been in the right area, this way you have an overall perspective and can see other things, Tell me what OBIO is doing. Oh, that maybe a very bad question at this time, he might have •left. S2. A1 right. That's possible. 212 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2
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Approved For Release A- P96-00788R001100080005-8 1B4: 184: IB4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: S2: IB4: If you had to pick a word of description Of 0K, cancel that question. this particular structure, a comercial , industrial type description, how would you describe where we've been? You mean by it's function or what? A feel, you know, Itis either a very large office building or a some sort of educational thing like a school building or something like that is the feel of the structure. Right, that's, 0K. Would, why don't we go inside, walk under and move in. Into this main, into what you Ive defined sort of as the main, the main area. Tell me whatls there. I get a feeling of open corridor types and you have the feeling of, it's fairly airy, and I just have the feeling of more of a school than an office building, although it seemed like Any reason for that? It seems like the things that I get an impression of that are in the corridor would be things like, I don! t know, it seems like they're bright colored signs and stuff like that. I cant t guarantee that, itas just a feeling that I get* It's a feeling, that's all we want. Like in the room spacing and the corridors, dom the corri dor seems to be that of a classroom size rooms, that sort of feeling. Uh huh. 0K. I don't have a good orientation for the inside, I just got that sort of impression of it. If my vote has to be one way right now r would go with the school. I dust wanted to see what kind of a feeling Ch, no vote, no vote. you had. That's the impression. 0K. anything else you would like to add. now. Uh huh. 213 UNCLASSIFIED I know OBIO has left by Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 20001 1 - 0788R001100080005-8 1B4: S2: 184: S2: 1B4: 184: 1B4: Take a look around. There* s a parking area that I haven tt talked about, it seems some- where near there, off to they when r get back to the front area it seems like there's parking_åght in there, along the entrance way, but the main parking I think is this, to the left side of it. That* s about, I doret know I might be able to come up with more but I don: t We can continue if you would like, if you would like to continue to look at the area that's fine. I don it want to stop you if you feel that you have some perceptions coming to you. I'd better stop with it, cause Itm not too sure now it doesntt seem the sam A1 right, fine. How aboUt if you would like to please draw the structure for me. I can draw something. And I'm gonna flip this off. Approved For Release 214 UNCLASSIFIED 07 :
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Approved For Release 2 is a session of Project GRILL FLAME with S2 and IB4 and OBIO and 1B4: 184: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 184: 184: 1B4: OB12 as the outbounders and OBIO and 0B 12 should be at their target in about 17=18 minutes and well 1 start then. 0K, S2, it's 1:30, just relax and either tell me what you'd see, what you see, or if you'd like to have me ask you a question and sort of lead you in, it's up to you. Let me start for about a minute Well, I don't think it matters. or two with just seeing if I receive anything. 0K, that's fine. If not, then I am gonna Then you can start asking me or leading me whichever you wish. I start off, I get some impression of, it seems like multiple buildi ngs, 0K, you see Which, the feel of the area is one which is not spread out and open Now countryside, there! s more than one building in the near area. I can't, I don't have a feel right now of whether or not it(s con- creted city streets or things like that although that's A1 right. Are these structures next to each other, is there a separation? I tm not sure. Between these 11m not sure, I tm not sure that they tre buildings is all , I said structures. 215 UNCLASSIFJED itis just Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 6-00788R001100080005-8 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 184: Yes, they're structures and I get the feel of they seem to be fairly close to one another and varying in size. Alright. Do you have any feel for the height of any of these structures? Not a good feel for them but varying and I cant t, I can't get a distribution feel like' how many are tall, how many are small, that sort of thing. It seems as though the shortest are in the order of, I keep thinking of about 20 feet or so and the tal ler ones are more on the order of three times that it feels like the ratio is like threes so it must be around 60. A1 right, fine, tell me about their shapes. I don't get a feeling yet. Let's see, one, I tm trying to single out just any one of them to get a good close-up. A1 ri ght. They seen similar in shape, I think that's what I saw from the back. 0K, are all of the short group together versus all of the taller ones grouped together or Thatl.s the feel I've been trying to get and it's hard to track down. I got a feel of, well it feels almost symetry in some fom but I can't I don't know if it's, you know the feel like .the taller one is towards the center. Or ones of the shapes, whatever the shapes are and then they go down towards the outer edges. Are they light, dark? Dark, I have a feel ing for, more or less, well, the one I was thinking of, the taller one seems to be, I get a feel for it being darker than the others and in varying shades. I don't have a strong feel for or have anything right now but I do, the only, I do get a feeling of symetry for whatever is involved. Uh. huh. And a feeling of something that goes higher towards the center of this group. I am having a lot of trouble so far getting clearly separating out any one itan out of the group. 0K. Where are you standing in perspective to this group? 216 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 20
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Approved For Releas P96-00788R001100080005-8 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: Standing at ground level sort of or eye level . Is there a front to say the main structure in the center of this grouping? Is there anything distinctive about this main structure? I don't get a feel for how 7S'tinctive, distinctive about it fran the front as opposed to any other side. A1 ri ght. Off-hand, but it seems as though there are shadows, it segns to be the upper portion is not, not in shadow and the lower section is, so, I get a feel for that and the shape of it is kinda in a way, 11m trying to sort that out. It seems rather boxy, whatever it is. Fine. I mean in the sense of, I don't get a feel of it being pointed or anything at the top. 0K, very good. Why don: t you tell me about the surface? Staying with the front I assume you mean. Or whatever. It seans a, it doesn't seen to be a constant surface but it seems as though there(s concrete block in it or something of that size. Uh huh. I shouldnlt even say block but it has a surface of that sort, it has I have a feeling of a good bit of glass with it or surface of that type. Uh huh. And I still get the same feel ing of a change in Tight shadow or that sort of thing from top to bottom, with lighter, with a more portion of it, it seerns like maybe from the, about one third up being lighter because of the sunl ight effect than the lower portion and thaes at an angle too. Uh huh- Tell me what is on the ground level around this. It seens hard surfaced in the right around it, real close by. What direction are you looking at? I tve not been getting much, it seens like I 'm not getting very much feel for greenery but there must be something there. 217 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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ApppxneTFo-r 100080005 8 IB4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: No, there, you know, if you don it have a feel for it that's finea Yes. You know, it doesn't have tn hp. If it.ls there, it must' be srrnller percentage of the surface area. Right, it's not your predominant feature, possibly. Tell me what direction you tre in if you can, or how far away. I don't get a good feel for direction. It seems as though I kinda get both, a. sense for both but more, I guess the dominant one is like that way. I danit know what that is. I don't know, we'll figure that out later. And direction is, I mean in distance, oh r keep thinking of six so I'd guess six miles radius or radial distance. Very good. Somewhere that way. 0K, walk up to these-structures and turn around 180 degrees and tell me what you see. Well the first thing I got a feel for was trees. Fine. Or something like that with, that type of itan and I had some thought of a road but I didnlt get a, it seems like therets still concrete with that type of road surface or surface out a ways away from the front of the building. I got a. feel ing of trees somewhere, I dontt know whether they were overhead or off direct off away from me. 0K, anything else out in that direction? I don! t feel as though it's open area, so it seens as though whatever you look to see in that area you tre not seeing wide open space, i tas a feel ing of other objects that are close and no long perspective view. 0K, very fine. Why don't you go up above these structures and look down, 0K. I donJt get a good feel for the layout of then with respect to one another. The linear shape keeps coming to me. That*s the only thing that I seen to see on than. Are they flat, peaked, unifom? 21B UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 :
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Approved For Release 000 0 1 A- P96-00788R001100080005-8 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: The tops seem to be flat, more of the one's, it 's kinda hard to see the edges, you get a feel for something, this thing that comes this way but as you look down from the top each one is a separate object. Uh huh. And the highest I stiT1 feel is in the center and with the edges, I dontt quite know where the edges should be so then look from above if I get a feel for the higher one I don't know if I'm, you know, as it goes out, they seen to be separate and yet you still get a feel ing somehow they are interconnected for some purpose or some itis probably the way they sit on the ground or something. 0K. Tell me what you see around them from this aerial perspective, it seens conäested with some road like areas ar The area is still , that sort of thing so itis not wide open territory, at least I don! t get that feel . 0K, very good. Do you, can you tell me anything about any colors. Not, well 11m not sure, no I donat get a feel for any colors yet. A1 ght. I got a feel of some red but I dontt know where it was or where it would come from. 0K, but some red. Uh huh. 0K, can you te me what dBIO and 0312 are doing? Well, they seem to be seated at the moment. They tre seated. Yes, I get a feel for that. This the first time I really get a feel for then. I don't know what they're doing but it seems they're there. On what? Ch, it seens, well something like, I don't know if itts a wooden bench or something of that sort, it may have the like this high and they're seated on it. I can't tell, I donlt get a feel whether itis indoors or outdoors but I think, I think it's indoors. 219 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved För Release 80005 1B4: IB4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 184: 1B4: 1B4: I ndoors. In something, inside something. 0K. Do you have a feel fop-what is inside? It seems like a good number, like it's a busy area. Uh huh, 0K. But they Ire, and I did get, I get the impression that they're in some area where there's quite a few people. I don't know what it is, I caret tell that, and it's, I think it's, whatever that taller building is or taller thing. Do you have any feel for what type of establishment this is, a, do you feel, possibly comercial or eating or you know anything along those lines? It seens like, I don't know. No. They Ire sitting there. Yes, they're sitting there. Whatls around them? I can't, it seems like it Is open, fairly open, not a confined space or anything. I don't get the feel ing that they're sitting at a table or anything like that. 0K. Any colors come to mind where they are right now? No. It seems to be well lit and it segns to be, I get a feel of a good bit of glass around then. Uh huh. Which of these structures are they in? The tallest one. The tallest one. It seens as if, II ve been trying to sort that out I keep always coming back to whatever that tallest structure is. Yes, I noticed. And they seen to have gone to . that one and have gone, are in it. Theylre in that, 0K. 220 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO
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Approved For Release 2 1B4•. 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: But only at the first level of it. The front of it seems to be fairly easily accessible, that sort of thing. Good. 0K, we have looked at the front, we tve stepped back from the front and we've looked overhead. Go around to the back and tell me what)s back there. 0K. I get a feeling of brick on the back of it. Fine. It could have been a, or at least the color of brick. Thatls the color and not necessarily, yes it seens even like the texture of brick. Is this light or dark? Bricks come in light and dark. Do Uh huh. you see a lightness, darkness? That portion of it seems to be standard or fired brick. 0K. Sort of maroonish. 0K, your darker, you Ire getting it darker. Yes, not a very light brick. 0K. hat's out in back, beyond? Looking farther away? Uh huh. I dantt, it must be confined area again because I keep getting the feel of everything surrounding this whole area is condested in the sense of not being spread out open type business. Thatis the dominant feel I Ive had for this. What is back there, do you have any specific feels of? No, I feel as though you don't get a long view of anything, so it's like other structures are nearby, some open space to the front which is not too far away from this tallest one and 221 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 184: 1B4: 184: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 184: 184: If you had to categorize this area, I, well you've said conjested, 0K, but residential, commercial, that kind of a categorization, what would you say? ltd say more like a comercial area, one in which people would come to do business of some I get a feel of that rather than residenti . I donat have any feel for a residential area. 0K, very good. Uh huh. And maybe, there may be houses nearby but I don't get a feel for those. 0K, but the basic purpose of this then is not a residential type segment but more of a business type area, possibly. Well, something where, something where, something which is used by the public I would say that. Ilh huh, alright, fine. Which means not a place where people would normally reside. I don't even get a good feel for residential room within this string of things which peak out. Uh huh. 0K, S2.:I'm sure they've left, do you want to take a last look around and tell me what else ar expand on something we've already talked about? Alright, I'll see if I can get anything else. Well, looking back towards, standing at the front as you said turn around and look at the roadway, I still get that same impression of trees in that direction but no trees, I 've been looking for fields or trees 0K, so that: s the only That's the only place I have a feeling of trees. Fine, great. I' 11 try to do the other sides or, there must be something else there, but I don't get a feel for what the other stuff is, it must be lower vegetation or something else on the other side. Fine. But you see trees off in this one area. Yes. Yes, I know, uh huh. 222 UNCLASSIFIED
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Approved For Release 20ddW.dzA8*EE00788R001100080005-8 1B4: 1B4: IB4: But this time I didn't get them except in that one direction. Uh huh. Whatever that di rection is opposite the front of that structure. Thatls about the only other thing I come up with. Would you like to draw? Yes, I ' 11 draw something. I tm going to turn the recorder off, 223 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 2000 -00788R001100080005-8 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 1B4: It's the. Yes. 0K. At approximately ten minutes after one. This is a session of Project GRILL FLAF with S2 as the subject, IB4 as the Inbounder and OB3 as the Outbounder. 0B3 should be at his target in about 20 minutes. so, The time is now one thirty. 0B3 should be at the site. dust relax and let me know what comes to you. 0K. I think the area is a, first thing I got of it is that it seens to be sorta of an open area, ah, trying, it doesn't come thn.l yet as to what, its s trees and various types things in open areas but not, not clear as to what else is there yet. I got a feeling ..got a feel ing of his car Is it near where he is right now? Yeah, it seens to be close by, closer than, maybe, it might be that heis even leaning on it or very near it. How far away is he from here? 0K, thatis fine. Ah, I don't get a feel for that now. I.'d say,. Ohl. about a three mile radius is what think of -off •the 0K. 0K. He's in an open area of some sort is what you've said. Yeah, so far it still seens to be open. Grassy open? Yeah, grassy open. I, 225 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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r Approved 1B4: 1B4: 1B4•. 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 184: Is it a flat type area? Seems pretty f1 at. Seens like quite a bit of trees but not imediately within. So they are off in some, some distance? Right. Ah, I think there was, the first time there it seems as though looking, hets looking, looking away from a road or some sort of road like, and behind him there's fairly good roadway of some sort. Appears like along the edge of the road. Seems like it was an area where you wouldn't go too far from the roadway. That he was looking out across it. There's something in the scenery that I 'm not sure of yet. I keep get a feel for some, I'm not sure what that is. What was the first image that came to you? About this thi ng? Ah, I had a image of a bridge. 0K. And water associated with it but it seemed to be far off. Quite a ways off in _the field of view, though. I keep getting something that feels like bridges, but I don't know what', it could be some other structure but it sezns like a bridge structure. What makes you say like a bridge structure? Like bare metal . 0K. Or relatively metallic' structure that would be fomed into that general shape. Is it a structure that's sitting on this open area? No, that's the problzn. I don't get a feel as though it's, like it's even connected by roads at each end because I don) t get a feel of seeing the ends of it clearly, just. 0K. dust an object that has, that is made mainly out of metal and fairly large. So, even using the word bridge is possibly not correct. Correct, which is why I asked you why you thought it was a bridge. I just get the feel that it could be towers, could be. 226 UNCLASSIFIED
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Approved For Release 2000 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 184: 1B4: 1B4: A metal somethi ng? A metal something as opposed to a bridge. You said water. Yeah. Is that in the far feel also? Yeah, that seems to be far off. Maybe it was Just in the feel that he was looking in a sweeping type of. Scanning the horizon type thing? And that came up on it. 0K. Why don't you concentrate a little bit more on the actual place where he is? Yeah, I III try to stay closer to the roadway for a moment and see what happens. Sure. Weil, there's clusters of some, I guess they are houses or smaller buildings near him. Ah, like maybe half a dozen small buildings, the size of houses, not any. 0K. Any shape or texture to these structures? Nothing outstanding. Nothing except that they are generally as, what I get on the imagery of is they, they are all in about the same size as houses would be, and they do have variations so they could be, I mean not as much in shape and size as in color, or sense of light, dark, that sort of thing. 0K. Fine. So, that means, I guess that some of then might even be other type buildings and residences. Well, there: s some sort of a structure. A grouping of structures? Yeah. More than, I get this feeling of more than one. grouping. Can't place them in my, the imagery isn't good enough to place them exactly, 227 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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IB4: 1B4: 1B4: 184: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: Are they connected? Ah, rmrm, no. 0K. So they are distinct? Distinct and separate. 0K. I get the feel ing there is a connection somewhere. Where are they in rel ation to this open area? Do you have a feel for that yet? I'm not sure. Are they part of it of off to the side of it? Ah, they are not out in it, there is an open, open, open area, it seems as though, that's, I guess they are along to one side or the other. 0K. Like him, I'm not sure which side or the other because I think heis moving around. That's possible. 0K. Why don* t you sort of shift and see whatts around these structures? I'd say looks like just a grass, trees, shrubs, your standard type of environment. pprove 228 e ease
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INCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2 00108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788N001100080tO$:8—-----— IBA: 184: 1B4:. 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 0K. Let's change your perspective a little bit. Uh, huh. Position yourself at the structures and look båck. Therets a, I guess the•rels a road of some sense, it's not ah, I cant t It Is definitely a roadway, they're get a feel for that whether it! s. like houses facing a roadway. There's an opening, I think he was in the opening, between the buildings or somewhere between some of these things and then there was this open area, seems to be to the back and way back it seems to be fairly open behind. It's kinda strange, it doesn't appear to be a very anything, anything I've gotten so far, it's just a very comon area, not unique in the sense of a. Beats me. Great looking buildings or dramatic architecture nearby or anything like that. Looks dust like some spot you'd stop by the roadway, is It's not really a open road, there's houses, the impression I got. dark houses or something, there may be. Structures, we're tal king about structures, not necessarily houses. They're structures, I don: t want to use the word houses because I'm sure of that. But. whatever they are, . therels more of then, they: re sort of linear long, facing the roadway and the roadway, is, that's why I was trying to turn around and look that way, seems to' be, seens to be tree lined, that's the impression I get and it's ahs not ah, wide, that wide, maybe more like a two lane road. Thatls fine, that's great. On the other side, looking in that direction, I seem to, seems like therels more sort of like a rear image of the suburban area, more, lowered, maybe trees, but lower and more buildings or something or other, that, not much stand out in that direction. Can you get closer and see if 0K, let's go back to the structures. they)re, what kind of detail you see about them? Or' put a height perspective or shape perspective on them? Well, I should do that• sequentially, I guess. A reference point to work from I guess from where he's 229 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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100080005+------= 1B4: 1B4: 184: 1B4: 1B4:. 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 184: P Start, start with one at the end or something. Tell me what you see as you scan this Tine of structures. What I get is that they're ah, they're fairly, equal distance from the roadway, they're all comon shapes, that is general size, height, not nothing more than, I don't know, look like A or standard A roof Not *all of them, I guess, I get a feeling one of them type buildings. is, is a little different, more like a box. 11m getting the feel for that. What was this A roof type image? Well, you know, the regular A roof structure. Butyst on this one? No, all of them. All of then? All of then but one. All of then but one. 0K. Seen to be like a standard A roof structure of some sort. I guess. the impression is, could be small business outfits or could be houses, dust can't tell. Do you have a feel for what's inside at all? Nnnn No, but it seens as though they're, that some of than, like, have little driveways. Seems like they ld just be houses. That's the only feel I get for them. 0K. And not spaced.'. more than 100 feet apart at the most. What's 083 doing? 1. Ah, now. I don it know. • The only time I really had a feel for him was standing rlght next to or leaning against the car. No, that you said he was moving around, Yeah, and then wal king up now that we're going away from the car. don't know •which, seens like he was going out toward the open area 230 UNCLASSIFIED
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Approved For Release 3 1B4•. 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4•. 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 1B4: at that time, now I don't really get a feel for him. 0K. Burned thumb or nose burn. Hal Hal. Hal. I don't really know now. Would you like to take a look from an aerial point of view? Yeah, It 11 try it, I guess. Well, whatever the metal thing is comes back again, if I look, seems like when I go over here I get back onto that metallic object of some sort. Now that one I haven't been able to sort out any, any detail of that thing. What's its. It's big. It's big. 0K, so itis bigger than these other structures that are near it? It's bigger than these others and further away, considerably away, not two miles away, but hundreds of feet, it seems as though, something that would be a dominate influence in that, in that, sort of in the direction of the open area. 0K. But I can't sort it out. Is there, 0K, looking down. It's probably whatever the reason is for stopping there, seens like it is. 0K. Looking from your aerial point of vied, is there one structure, is there anything predominates the area, other than this metal thing, that would be in the more near field? I don't get the feel for anything. 0K. Unless, I don't know, I assume that there is but I dontt get a feel for it. 231 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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y----------*pproved For i 1B4: S2: 1B4: 1B4: 134: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 0K. Any colors? I mean that we have established that there is an open green area, but I mean apart from that. The building seems to be, the buildings, most of them are lighter colored, like white and some others seem to be whiteish. Any texture to them? Not particularly, just, I guess painted wood. Seems like painted wood or aluminum siding or something like houses would have. I get a feel for brick on one, the one that is boxy. 0K. That ts the one without the A frame you mentioned, 0K? Yeah, that: s the boxy shaped building. That one kinda, well, it seens, it might be bigger, I tm not sure. It didn't seen to be that much bigger than the others. This building. Does it have a front? Yeah. Can you tell me anything about the front? Not much, brick is the only dominant impression I get of the front. It seens to have more pavement. around the front or more, more of an area where you come out the road before you get to it and it seems to be near the center of this group of five or six or so buildings around. I get a, I had a feel first, No, I didn't get a feel the first time. Now, I've got an idea when you asked me to turn around and look the other way, that the road, fairly one road, but there's a corner there somewhere, very nearby within a hundred feet or so where he can turn around. Like a standard road intersection. 0K. I don't get too much else. I 'm still trying to look from the top. roadway, way out from the top has, the road! s not perfectly straight there, doesn't sean to be. The intersection-seens: as though one road goes a little way and stops, in the direction of that open area. Uh. huh! Like it's just an intersection, it's no, the road starts and doesnlt go anywhere. pprove 232 UNCLASSIEIED e ease
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Approved For Release 20dÆGEÆ&fiæ-00788R001100080005-8 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 1B4: 1B4: IB4: 1B4: Uh.i huh'. 0K, anything else that you see? No, nothing, nothing different now. That open area seems more like a, trying to see, it see-ns to be green or a Tow crop of some sort, like Rather than dust grass, there a fam field Or something like that. seens to be a, like a higher surface to it than dust grass. Which, and green rather than like Uh. huht. Anything off in the horizon, behind these structures, that ccmes to you. Nothing, nothing that stands, dust tree lines, that one area there where I, keep get a feel for. If you look straight through that field, there was tt(0, I think, I get the feel to the right is where this metal thing is, its off a good ways. 0K. Is the metal near the water? Yeah, it seemed to be when I first got the impression. Do you still have the feel for some water? Yeah, for water but it doesn't seen to fit into the terrain. so, 1 don't know-how to explain that.- mean Well, we don't tr to make sen e out of this. Right. Just the feel for water but not, not like bodies of water or water in that respect,' but like something to do with water in the process. 0K, S2, anything else you would like to add? Anything that came to you that you havenlt mentioned or would like to clarify? Can't think of anything. 0K. How about if you draw a pretty picture and I t 11 shut the tape off? I'm sure 083 has left. 233 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 20UNCL7ASffED6-00788R001100080005-8 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 184: 1B4•. 1B4: I B4: TEAM 1 This is an It's now 5 minutes after 1 on th as tne subject, IB4 as experiment of Project Grill Flame witn the inbound experimenter and 083 as the outbound experimenter. 0B3 will be at the target location in about 25 minutes and we'll 0K Sl itis 1:30, hopefully 0B3 made it to the sight start then. in time. 0K, It 11 just relax so I can Take your time. Any feel for how far away it is? No. Initial feeling is not defined, some kind of open, I had an initial sense of openness of some sort, but I don it know yet. 0K. I get the same impression of a dark object, .1 don 't know what that. is. A dark object. Yes. A structure? No. Or just an object? Yes, I donat sense any, I don't Any size or fom or anything to this object? No, I couldnlt say, I just have 0K, just take your time.. I don't have any sense of right now or any impressions right now of buildings or anything, but Itis quite possible there arenlt any. I get the feel ing of machinery or something or other. Machi nery? Yes, some object, you know, non-structural type object, it could be machinery or something like that. UNCLÅ!SIFIED you know, Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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—Approved For Relea 96-00788R001100080005-8 1B4: 184: Sie. 1B4: 1B4•. 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: What, do you No. I think Any .color? Something, I blob. have any feel for what it's constructed of? it was kind of strange. had the *initial feel ing of something, almost a black A black blob? Let me try- 0K. Try to get some Shift your perspective a little. Yes. Maybe that'll help, shift around 90 degrees to your right. look awfully confused. Yes, I an. You But why are you confused, what are you seeing that! s confusing Well I canit, I'm having difficulty relating, I have a sense of some sort of open type area, yet therets, I get the feel ing of this object, a darker object could be machinery or something like that. 0K, this open area, is it' a greenery type open area or? I don it get that feeling, I get some sort of surface, surfaced type thing, I get the feel ing of some, it's strange, some sort, I 'm reluctant to say that they are lamp posts or something like that, some sort of Some pole type thing? Some sort of pole type thing, I donat know what that might be, lighter color than the object. I had the feeling, just a fleeting impression of a bri dge structure type thing, but lim not sure how, how Is that high, low, close? I didn't get the feeling it was, I didn't get the feel ing it was close to wherever this is, that perhaps not so far away, but, you know. pprove UNCLASSIFIED e ease
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Approved For Release 100080005-8 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: Sl: IB4: 1B4: Sl: 1B4: IB4: Sie. 1B4: 1B4: Sl: 1B4: Not right there, necessarily. Not right there. Let me try to define. Sure. See if I can get any impression, I love your black blobs. Why don't •you see if you can maybe concentrate on 0B3. Is it very puzzled? Yes. Don't worry if it makes sense to you or not, just Yes, I'm just trying to let it sort of define itself. Uh huh. I get the feeling of a, like a squared off, surfaced area. 0K, fine. And Are you referring, like sort of a black-topped area, do you mean, yes, it could be, some, some squared off, large surfaced area. Well maybe itis not, maybe itis not surfaced per se, it's just that it's leveled off flat Tike. 0K, fine, whatever. Like one would find in a tennis court area or a baseball field area or something like that, • you know. 0K. That gives the impression of' a rather structured space, you know what I mean? Yes, 0K. Anything on this space? Well, that ts what I was thinking, some vertical , I had the im- pression, like poles. Like poles? 237 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 184: IB4: IB4: 1B4: 1B4: I B4 : 1B4•. Sl: 184: 1B4: 1B4: pprove And I don't know, I don't know what they are. 0K, you see some sort of poles, any height perspective to them? Fairly tall. Tall, 0K. Is there anything surrounding this area? I get the, I get the feeling there must be a fence somewhere around th ere. 0K. I'm not sure in relationship to What kind of fence? Maybe something like you'd find on a baseball field or tennis court walls sort of thing. 0K. Where does your black blob as we were referring to this object fall? I don't know, that was rather ill-defined at the beginning and I donut know whether this is, it could be some structure associated to one side of this area and it could be almost, I 'm thinking, I dontt want to get too specific, yet I get the feeling it's something like, you know it could have been something like bleechers, or there could be some equipment there, I tm not sure e 0K. fine. Any colors, other than the bl ack or darkness? No, that's somewhat confusing to me, lim What do you see, what's confusing? Well I 'm not sure, I really don't, you know I don *t know whether I tm trying to associate more than what I should or not. 0K, letis try another. I get conflicting trains on that, I tend to, I tend to think part of it is almost surface like. like black or something like that. Uh huh. And then I tend to think part of it is maybe just the ground, grass or sanethi.ng, I really don't know. Is it possible that the one feeling sort of serves to surround the other feel ing? UNCLASSIFIED e ease 07 : 96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 20001 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 1B4 : 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 184: 1B4: 1B4: I donlt know. 0K. Why don't we try a different perspective, why don't you sort of back off a little and see if you can scan a wider field of view and see if there's anything around this particular._ squared in area that you've been describing so far, sort of at it from a distance and see if there's anything either like in back of it from your perspective or off to •the sides, Of course the one area could be a parking lot or something, you know adjacent to Uh huh, sure, quite possible. Adjacent to an area. Uh huh. Do you see anything at all in the, you know sort of in back of this area or off to a side of it, any kind of structures or trees or I'm not sure, maybe trees on one side, I don't have much sense of the, I don: t have much sense of the horizon. It tends to seem like that there's How about the terrain in the back drop, is that a flat area, an open area, sloping? It seems kinda open, but I canit see much of the far away part. No structures? Ch. there could be a small, if there is, could be a small one nearby. Like a shed or something like that, 0K. Do you have any feel for OB3? No. I'm not sure. Any other things that come into your mind when you're looking at this area? Do you still have a feeling of a bridge in the distance? No, 0K. 239 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Releas+WPA51flÆDP96-6070&R00140008000S-e--—- 1B4•. 1B4: 1B4: 1B4: 134: 1B4: No, that was kind of something that just came and went, that wasn't a very 0K, 0K, we'll forget about that. I just find it, I just find it very strange because that's Do you have a sense of any motion anywhere around, any, you know like roads or anything like that, that you would see cars or people or You know it's quite possible there) s not a structure around. Yes, but I don't have the feeling, I don't have the feel ing of being able to get much beyond, beyond that area there. There may have been a fence or something between that hard surfaced area. 0K. Still the feeling of the wire type? Yes. 0K. Anything else Sl- No, it-ts kind of odd. I'm sure 0B3 has left the area. Do you want to draw anything? A1 right. 0K, I fm going to turn the recorder off. pprove 240 UNCLASSIFIED e ease
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Approved For Release 2 00788R001100080005-8 DISTRIBUTION LIST GRILL FLAME PROJECT Honorable Walter B. LaBerge Under Secretary of the Army Washington DC 2Ø31Ø SGII Cdr, INSCOM IAFM-OPS-HU (LTC Murray Watt) ATTN : FT Meade, MD 2Ø755 HQDA (DAMI-ISH) MAJ William Stoner WASH DC 2Ø31Ø SRI International ATTN: Dr. H. Puthoff, 333 Ravenswood Avenue Menlo Park, CA 94Ø25 Director Bldg 44 Defense Intelligence Agency DIA/DT (Dr. J. Vorona) ATTN : WASH DC 2Ø3Ø1 Commander US Army Missile Command DRSMI-YB (R&D) ATTN : (Mr. Clinton) Redstone Arsenal, AL 358Ø9 Office of the Chief of Naval Operations OP ØØ9T (Dr. W. Mehuron) ATTN : WASH DC 2Ø35Ø HQAF (AF INYS) LTC M. Bloom ATTN : WASH DC 2Ø33Ø 243 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
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Approved For Release 20 1 6-00788R001100080005-8 84 UNCLASSIFIED Approved For Release 2000108107 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8
Record
- Author / institution
- U.S. Army / CIA Reading Room
- Date
- 1978–1979
- Source type
- Declassified government document
- Used for
- SRI personnel and early Army program history
- Limitations
- Program documentation, not proof of psychic mechanism
Link
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080005-8.pdf